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Post by gregg on Nov 29, 2022 10:25:30 GMT -5
I am doing my due diligence looking for information on a recently purchased High Power internal extractor thumb print model. It was in pretty rough condition and took hours of cleaning to take pictures clear enough to ask the forum for some background information. Since there is a limit on pictures, I have spelled out my findings. What are your thoughts on date of manufacture, site of production, site of assembly? I assume from the information below (*N) it was manufactured 1952. View AttachmentView AttachmentView Attachment1. The left side of the barrel has markings serial number 41717, a boxed 2 and an underlined H on the lug. 2. The right side of the barrel has markings of a crown with E(?),L and G inside, a * over N, a P.V under a lion; CAL 9 m/m P.; and two underlined H's on the lug. 3. The right side of the frame above the trigger housing is marked with serial number 41717 X (the X looks like an add on as it is slightly smaller than the 41717, a * over N, and a P.V under a lion. 4. The safety has a boxed 1 engraved. 5. The right side of the slide is engraved with serial number 41717X, a * over N, P.V under a lion. 6. The left side of the slide is engraved FABRIQUE NATIONALE DARMES DE GUERRE HERSTAL BELGIQUE BROWNING'S PATENT DEPOSE, a * over N, and a P.V under a lion. 7. the right side of the hammer has an engraved 0 Thank You, Gregg Welcome to HPC Gregg. Thanks for posting the images and proof mark descriptions. Would love to see images of the full pistol. Just post again, with the additional pictures. To get things started, in Vanderlinden's 3rd edition, page 198 he states on FN Factory manufacturing markings, "FN applied a number of small markings as parts of their own quality control". The markings can indicate - Which operate manufactured the part
- If the part was rejected
- FN Final inspection
- When a part was made
We know what some of the inspector marks are or who they belong to, many others we dont.
The */N is an FN inspector mark, belonging to Henri Florkin who inspected between 1927 and 1958. The crown over an oval with an E/LG is the Proof of Liege (Epreuve de Liege) final proof mark. The Lion over PV is the smokeless powder proof mark for barrels which notes it passed the smokeless powder test. This proof is typically found on FN pistols manufactured after 1903. The H on the barrel is probably just an inspector mark. You cant always date FN High Powers by the serial number, as FN allowed contracts to include requested serial numbers by the client. That said, yours does fall into the early 1950s time frame. If I am seeing properly, the barrel lug has a 2 with a partial box around it with an open top. That would signify first quarter of 1952 for the production date of the barrel. The partial boxed 2 on the trigger guard is harder to see all of the lines, but a box with an open top is 1st quarter of 1952, a line on the left and bottom, 2nd quarter, a partial box with open bottom 3rd quarter and a top line and right side line, 4th quarter of 1952. I would like to see an image of the 0 on the hammer. Any lines around it? It could be a production date mark, or just an inspector mark. I have a customized High Power with serial #40230, matching barrel, frame, and slide, *D, Controller of the proof Rene Marchal, 1951-1968, on barrel, frame, and slide FN Production date codes, on barrel 1st quarter 1952, on slide stop, 1st quarter 1952. So similar to yours. With that I would agree your High Power is probably late 1952 or perhaps into 1953. Thanks for posting and sharing. Please post again with some additional full images. Thank you Todd! This is great information to be filed with the Hi-Power.
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ght
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Post by ght on Dec 11, 2022 17:27:30 GMT -5
I recently inherited a Browning Hi Power and would like to know more about it. Thank you for your help. Slide info: right side: Serial number 45612 Left side: Farbrique Nationale D'armes de Guerre Herstal Belgique browning's patent Depose PV under a lion U under a star Just above the firing pin: A and it looks like a - 12 Frame: right side: 45612 2 in a box with a K on the trigger guard Left side: PV under a lion U under a star * under the wood grip, toward the bottom under side: F and other indistinguishable markings by the mag well hammer right side: looks like O.F with a 1 in a box trigger right side: 1 Barrel: right side PV under a lion U under a star ELG with a star under it, in a crown Cal 9m/m P below the barrel 2 looks to be in a box further down Left side 45612 RR underlined (below the barrel) I to the right of the RR Slide release 4 1 Safety 1 in a box Pistol is blued and has checkered wood grips, fixed sights, 4 11/16 barrel Thank you George
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Post by ToddSig on Dec 11, 2022 19:39:47 GMT -5
Welcome to HPC ght. Nice matching number High Power. You have a nice looking early 1950s High Power. How long has it been in your family and do you have any background on when it was obtained?
The * over a U, is for Hubert Charlier a controller of the proof mark at FN. He worked between 1923 and 1953. The small number 2 in boxes or partial boxes represent the production date of the part. A 2 with a box having an open top is from the 1st quarter of 1952, line on the left and bottom around a 2 is 2nd quarter of 1952, a 2 with a box having an open bottom 3rd quarter and a 2 with partial lines top and right side is for the 4th quarter of 1952.
The lion over PV is the smokeless powder proof, the crown over E over LG over a star is the Epreuve de Leige (proof of Leige) which is the final proof and should be on all FN pistols. Other marks are all probably inspector or operator marks and part numbers for the individual parts, where we have limited to no information.
Given many of the parts are marked from 1952, I would suspect the High Power was assembled and serialized in late 1952 or sometime in 1953 (the final year of controller of the proof Huber Charlier).
Hope this helps.
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ght
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Post by ght on Dec 12, 2022 10:36:30 GMT -5
Thank you for the info. My dad told me he bought this for my mom, so it was always "mom's gun." From the dates you provided, it looks like it was purchased the year they got married, possibly a wedding gift? Thanks again.
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ejr
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Post by ejr on Jul 21, 2023 11:01:37 GMT -5
I am new to hi powers. Just bought a FN marked HP with serial number 245MT01xxx. Pistol has black epoxy finish. On the left side of the frame the pistol is marked “Fabrique Nationale Herstal Belgique”. At the front of the frame adjacent to the dust cover it is marked “FNMI Columbia, SC”. On the right side the SN is shown on the frame above the grip, on the slide below the ejection port, and on the barrel. Would anyone be able to provide information you have for this serial number. I am concerned because the info I have seen says the format of the SN beginning with the 245 ended in about 1997, but the MT date code indicates manufacture in 2006. I just want to make sure this is a FN produced pistol.
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Post by Bob Reed on Jul 21, 2023 16:29:49 GMT -5
Hello, EJR,
I am 99.99% sure your FN HP is legit. Apparently, FN stayed with the old numbering system, and as you've probably already learned, 245 is just a prefix that denotes it's a High Power chambered for 9mm Luger.
BTW: I have a 2006 manufactured Browning (roll marked) Hi-Power and its Prefix is 511 - and still yet, Browning Arms hasn't added the 511 Prefix change to their serial number list.
Welcome to the Club,
Bob
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ejr
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Post by ejr on Jul 21, 2023 18:33:24 GMT -5
Bob thanks for the excellent information. Glad to be here.
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Post by alpsaral on Aug 4, 2023 15:55:21 GMT -5
Hello, EJR, I am 99.99% sure your FN HP is legit. Apparently, FN stayed with the old numbering system, and as you've probably already learned, 245 is just a prefix that denotes it's a High Power chambered for 9mm Luger. BTW: I have a 2006 manufactured Browning (roll marked) Hi-Power and its Prefix is 511 - and still yet, Browning Arms hasn't added the 511 Prefix change to their serial number list.Welcome to the Club, Bob This info is missing. On the Browning side (I assume you mean the table on the website) there is nothing actually wrong. The 510 represents pistols in Browning's new system. Therefore, you should consider the list there by defining it according to your weapon as follows; 511 - HP 9*19 512 - HP 9*21 513 - HP .40 s&w ... 516 - BDA 9*19 etc. Putting 0 is perceived as Browning made a mistake. It's probably there because all pistols start with product code 510. Hi all (from Türkiye)
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Post by Bob Reed on Aug 4, 2023 18:55:36 GMT -5
Hello, Alpsaral - Welcome Aboard. This is the Browning Arms list I was going by - it stops after 1998, but I'm sure the two-digit date code carried on until the sad, untimely end of BHP production. www.browning.com/support/date-your-firearm/hi-power-pistol.htmlThe 510 Prefix started in '98 and ran until(?) but it specifically means Hi-Power. As for the 511 Prefix that isn't listed on Browning's website - I know for sure 511 Prefix was in use by '02 and was still in use in '06.
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Post by ToddSig on Aug 5, 2023 10:29:37 GMT -5
Bob, I am not sure where I saw it, but I recall reading a post that FN/Browning never used the 510 prefix for the Hi Power. The Browning serial number reference chart with 510 is supposedly a typo that was never corrected and changed. The 511 prefix is what is the correct prefix for post 1998 production Hi Powers. Now, with FN you never have absolutes. I checked a few of my post 1998 Hi Powers, all have the 511 prefix, no 510 prefixes. I have a late production Hi Power from 2016, and it too has the 511 prefix. Does anyone have a Hi Power with a 510 prefix. If so please share.
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Post by Bob Reed on Aug 5, 2023 13:47:14 GMT -5
Hello, Todd,
No, I've never saw a 510 Prefix and I went and looked through a bunch of pages I printed off the old, Original FN Hi-Power Forum and the only mention of 510 is reposting Browning's list.
However, I did come across one that Browning's list doesn't show, and that's Prefix 215 - the info I printed say's; 215 represents Military Pistols - and I'm sure it's covered in our hardcover books, but seeing it again jogged my memory.
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Post by ToddSig on Aug 5, 2023 18:09:13 GMT -5
Hello, Todd, No, I've never saw a 510 Prefix and I went and looked through a bunch of pages I printed off the old, Original FN Hi-Power Forum and the only mention of 510 is reposting Browning's list. However, I did come across one that Browning's list doesn't show, and that's Prefix 215 - the info I printed say's; 215 represents Military Pistols - and I'm sure it's covered in our hardcover books, but seeing it again jogged my memory. Hi Bob, that is correct. One reference I found was in Blake Stevens book, The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol in the 2014 edition in the addendum on page 303 Stevens states "Initially, the 215 prefix was intended to signify military contracts, while the 245 code was reserved for commercial or sporting production, but FN has not followed through with this system and these codes are now used more or less haphazardly."
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Post by Bob Reed on Aug 5, 2023 18:46:10 GMT -5
Yes, Blake's book is how I verified 215 was legit way back when - and I have always wanted a 215 prefix as well as the 510 that's never existed.
That's funny, I always wondered back then where all the 510s were hiding. So now, I guess we can stop lookin' for 510s... and start lookin' for another oddity like what EJR posted above, 245 Prefix ('76 - '97) but has an '06 date code.
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Post by tnorris on Aug 5, 2023 23:29:29 GMT -5
Yes, Blake's book is how I verified 215 was legit way back when - and I have always wanted a 215 prefix as well as the 510 that's never existed. That's funny, I always wondered back then where all the 510s were hiding. So now, I guess we can stop lookin' for 510s... and start lookin' for another oddity like what EJR posted above, 245 Prefix ('76 - '97) but has an '06 date code.
I have one 215 prefix BHP - an alloy frame from 1979. It's frame is now mated to a Girsan MCP35-PI slide.
Cheers,
Tim
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Post by Bob Reed on Aug 6, 2023 8:52:22 GMT -5
Hello, Tim, - I should've known you'd have a 215 in your amazing collection.
I hope all is well, Tim.
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