FN HIGH POWER DATE OF MANUFACTURE

[mountainoracle]

I own a FN High Power, 9MM, SN 65XX. Is there any way to find a date of manufacture? 

[/URL]
[/p]

[CXM]

We have some members here who are pretty good at interpolating the age of an HP from the proof marks...

To do that they need to see good clear readable and well lighted photos of all the proof marks and roll stamps. Some of the proofs are internal and are on the frame and inside of the slide. THese can be photographed if the slide is removed.

Keep in mind clear readable photos are key...

I'm pretty sure you will get a reply... a heads up however, not all of these knowledgeable guys are able to visit every day, so don't be surprised it it takes a few days.

Oh... forgot to add hat is a nice looking HP...

V/r

CHuck

May 27, 2017 12:25:17 GMT -5 mountainoracle said:

I own a FN High Power, 9MM, SN 65XX. Is there any way to find a date of manufacture? 

[/URL]
[/p]

[/quote]

[Carolinaman]

Hello Sir,

Start here:

www.browning.com/support/date-your-firearm/hi-power-pistol.html

Best,

Chris

[mountainoracle]

A little more information on my FN that might be helpful:

. Using the list they show would indicate my gun was made pre-1954. I'm going to list what information I have and maybe someone can point me in the right direction.

1, The HP came with fixed sights and has the usual Belgian proof marks.

2, It has a 4 digit serial#, 65XX, stamped on slide, frame and barrel. On the slide there are the letters SS in front of the serial number (SS65XX).

3, The slide is marked with the standard European "Fabrique Nationale d'Arms De Guerre - Herstal Belgique - Browning's patent depose" and has the disassembly notch on the right side.

4. Internal extractor with a small plug in the slide serrations on right side.

Any information welcomed

Thanks

 

[CXM]

Unfortunately, a serial number does not in it's self tell you too much about the gun. The reason for this is FN sold a lot of HPs on contract to police and military agencies. Customers often specified what the serial numbers for an order should be... for example, they could say start the S/Ns at 1000, or 1731 or what ever else they liked. Starting numbers on a new contract to begin where their last order ended so they would have consecutive numbers is not at all unusual. What this means is first there are duplicate S/Ns and second particularly in that time frame the S/N only gives you a general time frame for your gun. I know of a collector who has two pistols from that time frame with the same S/N.

In the case of modern guns, the serial number issue is less complicated... but not entirely straight forward either... for example Browning's web page that is supposed to date High Powers indicates the S/Ns for 'T' series HPs stops in the high 200,00 range... yet examples are known well into the 300,000 range... I have two that prove the web page is wrong. In addition, the Browning page does not address FN number series.

The only accurate way to date an older HP is using the proof marks to interpolate the date by the process of elimination.

This is to some extent bad news, but the information on how to date the gun is available and there guys who are quite good at it.

Here is the table of inspector (controller) codes








FWIW

CHuck

May 28, 2017 5:48:18 GMT -5 mountainoracle said:

A little more information on my FN that might be helpful:

. Using the list they show would indicate my gun was made pre-1954. I'm going to list what information I have and maybe someone can point me in the right direction.

1, The HP came with fixed sights and has the usual Belgian proof marks.

2, It has a 4 digit serial#, 65XX, stamped on slide, frame and barrel. On the slide there are the letters SS in front of the serial number (SS65XX).

3, The slide is marked with the standard European "Fabrique Nationale d'Arms De Guerre - Herstal Belgique - Browning's patent depose" and has the disassembly notch on the right side.

4. Internal extractor with a small plug in the slide serrations on right side.

Any information welcomed

Thanks

 

[submoa]

Chuck asked me to jot down a "what is it/what to look for/what to provide" guide for those seeking to ID and date their BHPs. As usual, my OCD kicked-in and I imagined he meant from 1935 to present and the “jotting down” got carried away, hope it’s helpful though. I’m assuming this is where you wanted this Chuck? If not, feel free to do your Admin magic and cut/paste/shred/move as you deem fit.

mountainoracle, I’ll address the info you’ve posted about your specific pistol in a subsequent post.

First, the basics: FN BHP pistols can be grouped (overlap/transitional/anomalies exist) chronologically as follows: Pre War (circa ’35-’40) (numeric serial/contract numbers assigned in blocks…not sequentially) German Occupation (circa ’40-’44) (sequential numeric…where FN left off in ’40, and ‘43 ”a”/’44 “b” suffix serial numbers), Post Occupation “A” (circa ’44-’45) (sequential “A” prefix serial numbers), Post ’45 “Classics” (circa ’46-’66) (numeric only serial/contract…and “E” prefix, numbers), Type 62/65 (circa ’63-’72) (“T” prefix & earliest “C” series serial numbers), Type 71/73 (circa ’71-’89) (“C” series & ”245/215” prefix serial numbers), MkII/Model 88 (circa ’81-’89) (“245” prefix serial numbers) and MkIII based (circa ’89-Current) (“245/2W5/511/513” prefix serial numbers). There are numerous readily identifiable FN Models throughout production…mostly fairly recent, as well.

With all that in mind, we’ll start with the easiest first: Date of manufacture can simply and reliably be ascertained using the serial number (code) from the “C” series on…but generally not earlier. Examples: 69CXXXXX = ’69 while 77CXXXXX = ’77. The “245/215/2W5/511/513” prefix series of serial numbers (Type 71/73, MkII, Model 88 and MkIII based pistols) contain a 2 letter date code…as follows: M=0, Z=1, Y=2, X=3, W=4, V=5, T=6, R=7, P=8, N=9. The date code is followed by the actual serial number. Examples: 245RR87358 = ’77 while 511ZT51076 = ’16…2W5NX50479 = ’93 in .40 S&W.

Although date of manufacture for Browning Arms import “T” prefix series pistols from ’64 though ’68 may be found on the US Browning website (www.browning.com/support/date-your-firearm/hi-power-pistol.html), FN actually produced the “T” series circa ’63 through ’72. The US Browning website “T” listings are specific only to the “T” prefix series pistols imported by Browning Arms. If a “T” series pistol is FN marked…or is outside the serial number range listed on the US Browning website you’ll have to treat it as a Post ‘45 “Classic” pistol…see below.

For Post ’45 “Classic” pistols, Post-Occupation “A”, German Occupation and Pre-War pistols identification becomes just “a bit” more complicated and requires reference materials, a knowledge of period serial and contract numbers, a thorough understanding of all the markings…usually quite extensive, to be found on/in such pistols. And then there’s the Ouija board, mystical incantations, the cauldron and of course chicken bones.

If there’s one word of advice for ”what to provide", that word would be “PICS”…clear pics. These pics should feature both sides of the pistol and include major design features and components such as sights, hammer, extractor, ejection port, thumb safety, muzzle and even breechface. Close-up pics that clearly show all the external and internal markings are essential and include slide legend(s), serial/contract number(s)…at each position, proof mark(s), Final Inspector (“Controller”) mark(s), inspection/acceptance/arsenal mark(s), assemblers marks. Most importantly for Post ’45…and later, pistols are the FN “Part Date Codes” found on trigger guard root, slide (firing pin tunnel), barrel underlug and various small parts which may include: trigger, hammer, firing pin retaining plate, thumb safety (inside), slide lock (inside) and occasionally even the recoil spring guide. Some of these marks are somewhat indistinct due to age, wear and the manner in which they were originally struck. While features and most markings can get you in the ballpark, the Part Date Codes will let you know your Post ’45 and later pistol could not have been produced earlier than ‘XX date…and even the quarter of that date.

In time, the search function here will permit comparison with other similar BHP pistols…and the assessments offered by those so inclined to offer an opinion.

[CXM]

That is really excellent stuff submoa... thanks very much for your hard work on our behalf... we appreciate it very much.

V/r

Chuck

[gt40doc]

Can Submoa's information be made into a sticky for future reference?? We don't want this info to get lost.

[CXM]

The topic is already a sticky... I learned to do that very recently... now I need to figure out how to do a sticky on an individual post... This soft ware would cause me to pull hair out,.. nature however, has made me safe from pulling hair out...

I agree however... and will do it as soon as I can...

V/r

Chuck

May 29, 2017 15:30:03 GMT -5 gt40doc said:

Can Submoa's information be made into a sticky for future reference?? We don't want this info to get lost.

[vis35]

Thank all of you for this very informative thread.

[submoa]

THX guys ...

mountainoracle; Sorry for the delay . Based upon your pic alone I can reliably tell you that you've got what appears to be some sort of pistol..........just kidding .

Joking aside, here's the deductive process ; based upon your OP containing the pic and 65XX "serial number" info only...assuming all original, your BHP appears to be an FN Post '45 "Classic" produced as early as '46 but generously NLT '66. That's based upon the apparent position/format of the slide legend, the flat barrel bushing, ring hammer, bump 'n hump fixed sights, internal extractor and 4 digit serial...or contract, number. It's been refinished in HC, has had the slide stop either trimmed or broken off forward of the pivot and it's been fitted with aftermarket grips. Sooo, '46 to '66 as the outside...based upon your OP alone.

Your subsequent post with the info confirms the above observations and adds a bit more...again assuming all original; 1) Fixed sights/Belgian proofs confirmed, check. 2) The fact that the serial or contract number is on frame/slide/barrel...it would be – check. Where on the barrel would've helped, but the "SS" added to the serial...or contract, number is actually problematic...never heard of such a factory prefix. 3) FN slide legend confirmed...check, but the fact that the slide still has the thumbprint "disassembly notch" narrows it down a bit. 4) Internal extractor confirmed...check, FWIW the "small plug" you describe is the "Sear Lever Pin" it's held in place by the internal extractor. Your post #2 brings us to likely; '46 to circa '58.

Forgetting the problematic added "SS" for a moment; if 65XX is a serial number it'd likely be '46/'47. If 65XX is a contract number it could have been from any number of early contracts...again, up to circa '58.

There are 2 ways to narrow the dates down; 1) Look for FN Part Dates Codes as described in my previous epistle - small rectangles or partial rectangles with a single number within. That’ll be the year that particular part…as a part only, was inspected. The appearance of that number will change with a new decade and the missing side…if there is one, of a partial rectangle designates the quarter of that year. But due to age, wear and especially the HC refinish the PDCs might be difficult to identify. 2) Alternately…especially during this period, one can inspect several different internal parts to close-in on a date. Look closely at the breechface…in ’47, FN spec’d a solid differentially hardened breachface to replace the original 2 piece Breech Plug breechface. The original breechface can easily be identified by the indent that holds in the breech plug…it appears as a punch mark just below the firing pin hole…when the slide is inverted. In addition: There were design changes to the hammer assembly, there were dimensional changes to the barrel lug and cam, and there were design changes to the MDS and corresponding cuts to the frame to accommodate it. BUT, keep in mind FN apparently NEVER threw anything away and old parts were installed…often haphazardly, years past the date new parts were spec’d and actually used. Dating by parts is most accurate when used to determine a pistol could not have been produced BEFORE the date the part came into being.

A word about the added "SS"; although you didn't mention Waffenamts and the 65XX serial/contract number would preclude German Occupation production, it's possible someone at some point might have proffered the pistol as Wartime German and added the "SS". Mr. Burgs has described one such fake going around gun shows near him that has an external extractor...first spec’d in '62 .

A final caveat; there are many BHPs out there especially lately that have been “modified”…and/or cobbled together, professionally or “otherwise”. Appearance of features, component parts, even markings can…often are, very similar between FN BHPs of multiple periods and even FEG P9 based clones, making clear pics essential for a proper ID. Your pic…like many of mine , is less than stellar , better pics = better ID.

If you’re looking for more…and a more certain “guess”, one word; PICS...clear pics .....

[rob52]

This is why I love this forum. We have experts like CXM, jaypee, submoa, Burgs, and others whom I am failing to mention but who are also encyclopedic in their knowledge (and my apologies to those unnamed). Thank you all.
Rob

[CXM]

On the subject of fakes, I see fakes as falling into two groups... 1) Fakes produced intentionally to defraud buyers... And 2) Fakes that happened because of the large quantity of HPs Israel captured from various "not very militarily competent" arab countries that keep starting wars with Israel. Once defeated the arab armies are wont to toss their weapons down and beg the Izzys for water.

Anyway, the result of all this is the Izzys wind up with piles of damaged/disabled guns that can be used to assemble usable pistols... and given the Izzys are well known for using captured gear the result is 'parts' guns. There is no intent to defraud anyone... all they want is to turn the piles of parts and non-serviceable guns into something that can be used. A few years there CDI sold off a HP (ex Syrian I think) that had obvious bulled damage to the gun... surprisingly the gun brought a considerable premium in the Gunbroker auction.

So, all that said, a lot of HPs of questionable ancestry are simply something an armorer tossed together... but let the buyer beeware there are intentional fakes in the market... which so far are pretty easily identified.

V/r

Chuck

[mountainoracle]

1. Serial number 65XX is located on the barrel were it can be read through the ejection port.

2. Serial number SS65XX is located on slide directly below the number on the barrel

3. Serial number 65XX is located on frame below the slides serial number just above the trigger and trigger guard.

4. Upon closer examination the slide stop has been shaved

5. Other marks on frame are behind the magazine well a Capital letter F, followed by what appears to be a lower case q which is after but above the F, follow by a Capital letter U which is located lower than the lower case q. There are other marking that under magnification are pretty had to see one looks like a triangle with base line missing and a dot in center of the legs, located before the F. The other looks like a horseshoe with a tail comming out it's bottom tailing off to the left on the left of the horseshoe; this is located under the FU below the q.

6. When first bought this HP 5 or 6 years ago I tried to figure out a date of manufacture and through research and talking High Power people we could not pinpoint the date of birth and the guess I finally came up with was 46/47/48...Which I thought was in the ballpark.

7. This HP was Hard Chromed when I bought it and I was told it had some other custom work done to it. I had noticed the SS65XX and questioned it because I knew of Wartime German manufactures; this HP was never represented as a German Wartime Manufacture and I didn't take that into consideration when I made my offer to buy it. I paid $375.00 and the High Power has been both accurate and reliable since I've owned it and have used it as a concealed carry.

Thanks to submaoa and CXM for all their information.

[submoa]

UR most welcome :-)

Assembly marks...

Normally with such a (likely) vintage BHP one would expect the SN on the barrel to be on the port (Left) side. Visible through the ejection port on the starboard (Right) side would normally be...top front to rear; the Belgian Lion over P.V. (Poudre Vive) Smokeless Powder proof, the Controller Mark (Star over Letter) and the Epreuve de Liège (Proof of Liège) Final Proof. Centered below these "proofs" would normally be "9.m/mP."...not the SN.

Glad you're enjoying your personal treasure :-).....