|
Post by ToddSig on Dec 22, 2023 12:06:04 GMT -5
ahandgunner2 I have a 1965 Browning import T, serial #T145741 which puts at the end of 1965 production. The barrel is marked with the mirror image 5 within a box with an open bottom (same as yours), so production date of 1st quarter 1965. Also, mine too has Jacques Fuchs controller of the proof mark * over a U.
|
|
|
Post by ahandgunner2 on Dec 22, 2023 13:34:37 GMT -5
Thanks ToddSig, would they have the same serial number range but add a T for the BAC imports? Also my serial number on barrel is below proofs where yours is caliber markings (theyy are on the other side of mine).
|
|
|
Post by ahandgunner2 on Dec 22, 2023 13:47:35 GMT -5
Just read your first post (after reading 2nd - doh!). I will look for more markings again on trigger, back of the slide stop, firing pin plate, and hammer as well. I didn't see any other markings but will check again with better lighting and magnification for these old eyes. Is your Silesia a non-import marked one as well? Still trying to figure out how it got here - but of course it was pre-68 when things were a little easier So, pending any later date stamps found, 1965 is probably a good guess?
|
|
|
Post by ToddSig on Dec 22, 2023 14:32:48 GMT -5
Thanks ToddSig, would they have the same serial number range but add a T for the BAC imports? Also my serial number on barrel is below proofs where yours is caliber markings (theyy are on the other side of mine). In 1965 FN was supplying FN marked T series, so no real explanation. I would think the stamping machine would include the full alpha/numeric sequence. Just seems late for a transitional mark, but with FN, stranger things have happened. Also, perhaps some others will add comments and thoughts, but what bothers me is the slide being production marked in 1965 but with an internal extractor. Dates and production marks dont line up real well. I looked to see if the 5 on the slide could be a 2, rotated the images, and the only thing that makes sense to me is a 5 for the 2nd quarter of 1965 for the production date of the slide. Only thing that makes sense is FN was using both old and new machinery during an extended transitional period. Or perhaps an old slide, and they placed a production mark on it that was actually later than when produced. Not all slides have a production date mark. That could also be why they decided not to use the T prefix. FN was very cost conscious, and used all parts until they were used up. I have a 1964 pre T, serial 125357, so it fits into 1964 serialization standards. It is FN, not BAC. Barrel production is marked 2nd quarter 1963, firing pin plate might be 2nd quarter 1963. Internal extractor. So it pre dates your, but is much closer to the transition period for internal extractor to still be utilized. RE the serial number placement for the period, most FN High Powers had the triple stacked serial numbers, Barrel over slide over frame. For Browning Arms Co, the serial number was only place on the frame, under the slides ejection port. This was based on import requirements for placement of the serial number. US required it on the frame, other countries had their own requirements for placement, so FN covered all of the bases. My Silesia does have an import mark on the base of the grip. From what I understand Silesia as well as Akah, Geco, were retailers in Germany. With the lack of an import mark, the idea of a bring back by US service men does make a lot of sense.
|
|
|
Post by CXM on Dec 23, 2023 7:11:06 GMT -5
Silesia along with the other wholesalers you list supplied a lot of guns to the U.S. Army and U.S. Air Force rod and gun clubs in Germany from the 1950s into the 1990s at least. The (not) esteemed Gen. Wesley Clark ruined all that (he is a democRAT) by giving away the ability of the U.S. Forces to have their own gun ownership policy (allowed by treaty) in the late 90s. This made it very difficult for Americans to have firearms.
Anyway, Silesia and others sold a lot of guns to the clubs who resold them to members of the U.S. Forces. Strictly speaking (to me at least) these are not 'bring back' guns having been acquired through retail channels. I think of guns gotten as a part of military action as bring backs... but of course that is just my opinion...
The wholesalers also supplied quite a few surplus guns to the R&G clubs, including a bunch of P38s, HPs, CZ75s, Mauser HPs and a lot more... some were refurbished some were not.
Just for info.
Chuck
|
|
|
Post by ahandgunner2 on Dec 23, 2023 11:32:02 GMT -5
Thanks Tood / Chuck Todd, are there any known internal extractor T-series out there? I was thinking perhaps FN kept the pre-T serial numbers going until they finished with all of the internal extracctor slides? Either way, seems I've heard of internal extractors making it to 66 at the latest so a 65 pre-T with my serial number is certainly likely. Chuck, I agree with you and would not call it a bring back if it was purchased by a service man in Germany. After you said that, I remembered that happening and even have a pistol in my collection (forget which one) that was purchased by an Army corporal in Germany (reciept was with the non-import marked gun). If only steel could talk and tell stories ... I'd really want to interview my Garands. Thanks again. Maybe others will weigh in on the markings and thoughts of 1965 production.
|
|
|
Post by ToddSig on Dec 23, 2023 13:12:39 GMT -5
Silesia along with the other wholesalers you list supplied a lot of guns to the U.S. Army and U.S. Air Force rod and gun clubs in Germany from the 1950s into the 1990s at least. The (not) esteemed Gen. Wesley Clark ruined all that (he is a democRAT) by giving away the ability of the U.S. Forces to have their own gun ownership policy (allowed by treaty) in the late 90s. This made it very difficult for Americans to have firearms. Anyway, Silesia and others sold a lot of guns to the clubs who resold them to members of the U.S. Forces. Strictly speaking (to me at least) these are not 'bring back' guns having been acquired through retail channels. I think of guns gotten as a part of military action as bring backs... but of course that is just my opinion... The wholesalers also supplied quite a few surplus guns to the R&G clubs, including a bunch of P38s, HPs, CZ75s, Mauser HPs and a lot more... some were refurbished some were not. Just for info. Chuck Great info, thanks Chuck.
|
|
|
Post by ToddSig on Dec 23, 2023 13:30:48 GMT -5
Thanks Tood / Chuck Todd, are there any known internal extractor T-series out there? I was thinking perhaps FN kept the pre-T serial numbers going until they finished with all of the internal extracctor slides? Either way, seems I've heard of internal extractors making it to 66 at the latest so a 65 pre-T with my serial number is certainly likely. Chuck, I agree with you and would not call it a bring back if it was purchased by a service man in Germany. After you said that, I remembered that happening and even have a pistol in my collection (forget which one) that was purchased by an Army corporal in Germany (reciept was with the non-import marked gun). If only steel could talk and tell stories ... I'd really want to interview my Garands. Thanks again. Maybe others will weigh in on the markings and thoughts of 1965 production. I am not aware of T series slide with an internal extractor, but that does not mean a few are not out there. Would not surprise me. There are pre T serial numbers without the thumbprint depression and with an external extractor, but they too are hard fine. Most Pre Ts do not have the thumb print depression, but most do have an infernal extractor.
|
|
|
Post by cpwlew on Dec 23, 2023 15:45:20 GMT -5
Silesia along with the other wholesalers you list supplied a lot of guns to the U.S. Army and U.S. Air Force rod and gun clubs in Germany from the 1950s into the 1990s at least. The (not) esteemed Gen. Wesley Clark ruined all that (he is a democRAT) by giving away the ability of the U.S. Forces to have their own gun ownership policy (allowed by treaty) in the late 90s. This made it very difficult for Americans to have firearms. Anyway, Silesia and others sold a lot of guns to the clubs who resold them to members of the U.S. Forces. Strictly speaking (to me at least) these are not 'bring back' guns having been acquired through retail channels. I think of guns gotten as a part of military action as bring backs... but of course that is just my opinion... The wholesalers also supplied quite a few surplus guns to the R&G clubs, including a bunch of P38s, HPs, CZ75s, Mauser HPs and a lot more... some were refurbished some were not. Just for info. Chuck GECO, AKAH and NORRIS also supplied HiPowers in West Germany. SILESIA also supplied HiPowers with the "E" prefix. Some SILESIA HiPowers had the tangent sight & stock slot. There are more SILESIA marked ones than the others.
|
|
|
Post by ToddSig on Dec 23, 2023 20:05:50 GMT -5
ahandgunner2 was just looking at some HPs and spotted this High Power, non T series, serial number about 10,000 beyond yours @ 156419 with internal extractor. This is getting very late. Perhaps on some of the older FN inventory, as you suggested, they left the T off (or perhaps it was part of a contract, with client based serial number). And, perhaps some of these late pre T HPs were assembled only for the European market, and US Browning Arms Company imports, had the T series with external extractor. But all said and done, nothing really surprises us with anomalies from FN.
|
|
|
Post by ahandgunner2 on Dec 27, 2023 11:44:41 GMT -5
Thanks ToddSig, a later one than mine...makes me feel young
|
|
|
Post by novanick on Feb 3, 2024 17:00:47 GMT -5
Hi folks...I recently picked up an alloy-frame FN BHP, S/N 215RN30XXX (seems like 'RN' makes it 1979?), assuming from the wear points on the finish that it lived most of its overseas life as a holstered police weapon, but am respectfully asking for your experience and knowledge in pinning down any additional production or country of service info. I’ve tried to capture the main reference points mentioned throughout this thread but happy to retake photos if resolution or lighting are insufficient. Cosmetically it’s seen some things apparently, but mechanically all looks to be in good order. Thanks much!
|
|
|
Post by ToddSig on Feb 3, 2024 19:24:24 GMT -5
Nice alloy HP novanick Yes, it is a 1979 marked HP, RN. The later alloy HPs were made from around 1975 into the mid 1980s. I have a 1984 (PW) model in my collection. The only marking I can identiry is on the barrel lug, an * over a D, which should belongs to Rene Marchal work inspected for FN between 1974 and 1982. The other marks are various proof, insecpiton and part quality control marks, not associated with a date or inspector that we are aware of. The first year or so of product, 1975 had the standard pressed into the frame barrel cam, replaced I beleive the following year by the round spline. The pressed we beleive had a tendency to losen in the alloy frame. Many beleive the alloy pistols of the 1970s and 1980s belonged to European Police, including the Belgian Gendarmerie Motorcycle Police and also some state the Austrian Gendarmerie. The Austrian??? contract HPs are typically marked with letter abbreviations. Some of the abbreviations marks include GVA/GVB/GVC prefixes to the serial number. Unfortunately, I am not aware of a lot of difinitive information on these alloy HPs. These used to be rare, and highly sought after by collectors. A few years ago a large group of them were imported and sold, many on GunBroker. They are still in demand, but not like they were a few years ago. Also, Girsan is making an alloy clone as well. The HP was imported by B&T USA in Tampa. I have never heard of them, perhaps some of our Florida members have and can comment. My 1984 (PW) alloy My 1980 alloy in camo, with the GVC markings. This was my first HP alloy purchase when they were hard to find. The camp has grown on me.
|
|
|
Post by cmdrcody on Feb 5, 2024 15:41:40 GMT -5
I am joining the HPAOC (Hi Power Alloy Owners Club) this week with 1 coming to me from AimSurplus. Pictures when I get it. I had to move away from my recent purchases of 2- .357 Mag, 1- .38 Special, 2- .38 S&W, and 4- 7.65 mm (32 ACP). I almost broke the string with an early (1998) CZ 97B, but my 97BD threw a fit, what do you expect from a .45 ACP.
|
|