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Post by beczl on Jan 8, 2021 14:57:40 GMT -5
Hi Folks, Just a quick introduction, before a more serious topic.  I'm Laszlo from Hungary. I'm an FÉG addict and I doing a research about FÉG pistols, especially Hi-Power clones, and not fully clones as well. In Hungary, we called all of these FÉG pistols 'Parabellum'. So in the last four years, I tried to collect as much information as I can about those 'Parabellums'. I performed several personal interviews with formal FÉG employees, weapon engineers, managers, and other subject matter experts. I also collect all available historical and technical information from the Hungarian National Archives, Hungarian Defence Ministry Archives, Foreign Trade archives, and so on... As I see several rumors or false information around about FÉG Hi-Powers, so I decided to release this collected information as a book, but the Corona situation made me change my plans. Unfortunately, as I see I will not have an opportunity in a near future to present this to the Hi-Power and FÉG enthusiasts as I planned. So now the interesting part, because of the above I will post some of my collected information weeks by week, and feel free to make comments, or if you have any questions feel free to ask. I hope that many of the secrets so far will be revealed, and I will do so to the delight of all gun collectors. |
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Post by beczl on Jan 8, 2021 15:25:28 GMT -5
First things first. Many of you could know, everybody talks about FÉG reverse engineered or pirated Hi-Power drawings but seems that is not the case. After I dig in the Hungarian Foreign Trade Ministry old files, as well as FÉG available letters from 1972-1973, discussed with formed FÉG engineers, seems Hungary bought the Hi-Power manufacturing license, and tools directly from Belgium in 1973. To support this here is a letter from András Szilánk FÉG CEO to Foreign Trade Ministry Head of Department dr. Mária Herczog about the delay in relation to the new GP-35 product. Some important fact from the letter: - They had got the manufacturing license legal documentation from FN Belgium on March 4, 1973. Then March 12 they received all the special tools and devices required for manufacturing.
- The planned target for manufacturing the initial batch was July 1, 1973, But had some delay because Belgian drawings much different than regular Hungarian ones, and in this case they need to redraw all of them.
- The new target for the initial batch was rescheduled to November 7, 1973, the Great October Socialist Revolution commemoration, where the new pistol must be presentedAttachments:
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 8, 2021 17:14:26 GMT -5
Hi Laszlo, and welcome to the High Power Collectors Forum. Thanks for selecting our site to post your research and information on FEGs. I am of Hungarian decent, Grandparents came over in the early 20th century. They come from a small town called Papa near Lake Balaton. I dont speak any Hungarian, my Dad spoke a little. Have been to Hungarian once, about 30 years ago and loved it. I need to go back. We have many FEG collectors here on the forum, all I am sure would be willing to assist. If I can be of help, just let me know. Because of my Hungarian heritage and interest in Hi Powers I also collect FEGs. I have FEG Hi Powers, FEG/Mauser Hi Powers, FEG/Luger Hi Powers, Charles Daly/FEG Hi Power as well as some early Femarus, and a 1958 FEG Togagypt and other non HI Power related FEGs. Since there are upload/attachments restrictions to number and file size of 1mb, should you need to get images or documents online and posted, just let me know and I can get them posted for you. Feel free to send me a message if wish. Again, I would be happy to help and get your information out to the Hi Power and FEG collector community. I am looking forward to your seeing your research and learning more about FEG Hi Power clones. Todd Kassnar P9 Import with proof certificate , 1986, has Millett Combat sights  My FEG Luger  |
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Post by beczl on Jan 9, 2021 3:49:12 GMT -5
Thanks, Todd, I really appreciated your and other forum members help. I have a lot of raw data that required for analysis and in some cases without good references hard to figure out which ones are correct and which are not. This is valid for especially the US export Kassnar, KBI, CAI, Interarms, etc.. weapons. I have an FP9 from almost the same era.  Document Nr.2: The FÉG 'Parabellum' pistols serial numbers "decoding" from 1992. I got it from a former FÉG weapon division customer support team member László Világosi.  |
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Post by beczl on Jan 9, 2021 14:27:05 GMT -5
Short Production Timeline:
1973, March 4: FÉG acquired FN license to manufacture not for a fully licensed copy, but make their own version. This is about the cold war secrecy. It's very weird if a Warsaw Pact member produces a licensed gun from a NATO member of Belgium. This is the reason why FN never does anything against FEG products. Then March 12, tools required to manufacture the pistol are received directly from FN Belgium.
1973, November 7: The pistol P9 ready for initial test batch production, József Kameniczky the FÉG chief engineer lead the whole production.
1974, Május 9 Bála Biszku the Secretary of the Hungarian Central Communist Committee visited the FÉG factory, where András Szilánk CEO and Sándor Kovács the Secretary of the Communist Party Committee presented them the initial batch of the P9 pistol. They give their approval about the pistol mass production for 1975.
1975, February 17, The P9 regular and P9C chromed version mass production started
1976, October 8, A modified version of the pistol called P9M started to develop by chief engineer József Kameniczky and engineer Miklós Vándor.
1979, March 19, P9M prototype ready for a test.
1980, August 23, The P9M model goes to mass production.
1981, Sept 28, The ribbed version FP9 V1, and longer sport version P9L patented by József Kameniczky under Hungarian license number 180483/1981
1982, January 28, The P9R regular, P9RK compact S&W style pistols patented by József Kameniczky under Hungarian license number 185411/1982
1982, July 5, FP9 V1, and P9L mass production started
1982, November 28, P9RA S&W type alloy frame, P9RAK S&W type alloy frame compact, P9MA Browning type alloy frame pistols started to develop
1982, December 7, P9RZ S&W type pocket DA, B9R S&W type .380 Browning Short DA, B9RK S&W type Compact .380 Browning Short DA, M9R S&W type 9x18mm Makarov DA pistols are patented by József Kameniczky under Hungarian license number 190073/1982
1983, January 18, P9R, P9RA, P9RAK, pistol Prototypes built
1983, March 8, P9R, P9RA, P9RAK goes to production, other types had required some modification.
1983, April 1, József Kameniczky retired, all development on hold. Their final prototypes about the P9, P9M, FP9 sheet metal frames models were never finished.
1984, May 21, P9RA, P9RAK Alloy framed models have an issue even they have increased the Aluminium alloy Titan component from 0,1% to 0,15%. They modified some parts of the pistol, but after a hundred pistols, they are stopped their production.
1984. June 9, P9RK test batch built,
1984. August 24, Modified alloy frame P9MA prototypes built, but after 100 pieces their development closed due every forth pieces frames had some cracks
1984. September 20, P9RK goest to production
**** Till 1990 nothing happened. They are producing and exporting P9, P9M, FP9, P9R, P9RK models
1990. April 19, B9R, B9RK, M9R pistol Prototypes built
1990. October 26, P9M .40 S&W type, .40 RK S&W type compact, .40 RZ S&W type pocket, .45 ACP S&W type regular and .45 ACK S&W type compact pistols are developed and patented by the FÉG chief engineer Gyula Palotai and Sándor Géczi
1990. November 19, P9RC The combat version of P9R started to develop by Gyula Palotai and Sándor Géczi
1991. March 25, P9M .40, .40RZ, .40RK prototypes built, their tests are initiated
1991. July 6, P9M .40 approved for mass production, .40RZ, .40RK failed on tests
1992. September 12, The redesigned .40RZ, .40RK goes to mass production. As well as the previously developed P9RZ S&W type pocket DA
1992. December 7, .45 ACP and .45 ACK mass production started
1996. May 11, P9RC test batch approved for production
1996. August 24, P9RC test performed by the Hungarian Army, but pistols are failed to pass
1996. October 19, Modified version of P9RC pass on tests, goes to production
Most types of pistols remain in production till 1995, then between 1996-2002 FÉG successors, FÉGArmy Ltd and Solar Ltd. did not have rights to produce new parts, weapons assembled only from the stock which they acquired from FÉG after its bankrupt.
Between 1973 - 2002 The FÉG produced:
506.512 'Parabellum' pistols
2.120.500 various type of pistol mags
From above numbers, Hungary exported overall 407.651 pistols and 1.6million mags to the USA, Germany, Austria, Israel for civil purposes. And to Afghanistan, Angola, Angola, Brazilia, Canada, Cape Verde, Croatia, Cuba, Egypt, Ethiopia, Georgia, Greece, Guinea, India, Iran, Italy, Laos, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mozambique, Panama, Peru, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Slovenia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Switzerland, Vietnam, Yemen, Zimbabwe for Military purpose.
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Post by sams1 on Jan 10, 2021 0:36:33 GMT -5
WOW!!! This is incredible and fantastic information! Thank you so much for your work, beczl!
This information sheds a completely new light on FEG's history and credibility. FEG 'Hi-Power' pistols always had a good reputation for quality and now, I believe this invaluable information will go a long way to restore their good name and reputation as well. This should further increase the FEG 'Hi Power' value in the U.S market.
Please continue to update us - GREAT work!!
Thank you VERY MUCH!
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Post by beczl on Jan 10, 2021 5:28:09 GMT -5
The story of FP9.
In 1980 after the newly modified P9M goes into production, the FÉG chief engineer József Kameniczky really tired to continue his shotguns and hunter guns development, so he is looking for a new challenge. Because he's already involved in many of the FÉG pistol development such as 48.M, PA-63, R-59, R-61, AP pistol series, R78 they are really want to create something new. Because many of the new model development is quite expensive, but the company had very limited resources to initiate any new weapon production he only gets approval from the company directors board to modify some of the existing products as less cost as much as possible. He's developed four new types, but because of the cost reduction, only two of them are approved by FÉG management. This was the FP9 with ventilated rib for hunters, and the P9L longer barrel sport version. Both pistols used the existing P9M frame, slide, and small parts, and only a few new parts required to produce. For FP9 these parts are the following: New frame with ventilated rib, front and back sights, spur hammer. The FP9 ventilated rib idea is came to Kameniczky's mind from their previously developed FÉG shotguns which already have this feature. After their test version passed for internal tests, their pistol is patented under Hungarian license number 180483/1981 on September 28, 1981. Starting from July 5, 1982, the FP9 mass production is started and remain in production till 1995 models in four versions. (Between 1996-2000 FÉG successors, FÉGArmy Ltd and Solar Ltd. did not have rights to produce new parts, they are only assembled weapons from remaining stock which acquired from FÉG) Versions based on original FÉG categorization:
V1 Initial 1981-1982Serial range: F00001 - F00887 P9M frame (curved handle) + FP9 slide with sloped backside + Spur hammer + bigger slide stop cutout on the slide, P9M regular slide stop V2 Early 1982Serial range: F00888 - F06766, VV5000 - VV7500 P9M frame (curved handle) + FP9 slide with sloped backside + Spur hammer + small slide stop cutout on the slide, P9M regular slide stop V3 Regular 1983-1986Serial range: F06767 - F36500, VV5501 - 8600 P9M frame (curved handle) + FP9 slide with sloped backside + Rowel hammer + small slide stop cutout on the slide, P9M regular slide stop V4 Late 1987-1995Serial range: F36501 - F55919 P9 frame (straight handle) + previously cancelled P9RA slide with curved backside + Rowel hammer + small slide stop cutout on the slide, P9M regular slide stop between F36501 - F41100, Longer new P9M slide stop between F41101 - 55919 Slide rollmarks is existing various pattern. see above. Few cases versions could have inconsistency, this is valid especially V3-V4 versions which often used erlier version slides from stock.  The FP9 serial numbers are not fully in a straight line, continuous and consistent, because it had a shared FXXXXX serial pool with P9M. Both P9M and FP9 use FXXXXX serials at this time. FP9 FXXXXX Serial Numbers range per year: (number refer to the actual year latest produced serial nr.)  FP9 Production per year: Interesting pics about early FP9 Serial Nr VV5571 with one of the Kameniczky test frame, which rejected for mass production:  
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 10, 2021 9:30:57 GMT -5
Laszlo, this is incredible information, with levels of detail we have not seen in the past and have only speculated on. Thank you for sharing your research and supporting documentation.
Serial numbers, date of manufacture and the different models and slide/frame variations have always been of interest to FEG collectors. In the past there was very little to go on and only supposition and guesswork. Your time line, FP9 serial number chart, and FP9 variant descriptions and production charts are all great news for those FEG collectors who wanted a more granular level of detail. Please keep sharing your work and research.
The date of manufacture has always been of great interest to FEG owners. Many dates were approximated and based upon original date of purchase, mainly through Kassnar and KBI, the PJK-9HP, which was marked both the P9 and FP9. Do you have any P9 specific serial number/date of manufacture information you can share. Would the FP9 serial number/date of manufacture apply to the P9 as well. or at least partially?
Todays project, to take a look at two FP9s and P9s.
Again, should you have any problems posting content or images, just let me know and we will figure out how to get it up.
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Post by mark75h on Jan 10, 2021 9:55:39 GMT -5
Another grateful THANK YOU! Amazing information!
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 10, 2021 11:14:59 GMT -5
Just made this thread a Sticky in the FEG section.
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Post by tnorris on Jan 10, 2021 12:19:05 GMT -5
Laszlo,
I am fascinated with your information and will be reading your every word.
I have only one FEG (B 14,XXX / import marked K.B.I. ,INC HARRISBURG, PA and CAI Georgia VT.) and look forward to new and accurate info re production and date of production. It has some quirks!
Thank you,
Tim
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 10, 2021 12:22:16 GMT -5
I have two FP9s, one a Kassnar import, the other a CAI import Per Laszlo's variant and serial number/dates I have a 1983 Variant 3, Serial # F 16851 and a 1986 Variant 4, Serial #F37328. Between pistol characteristics and the serial number you get the date and variant/model for the FP9. One of the few times I have seen FEG information make sense and fit. The variant 4, 1986, Serial number F37328, CAI Import  Rollmark FP9 Col 9mm PARABELLUM over MADE IN HUNGARY  Straight front grip and P9M slide stop  Rounded slide rear & Rowel Hammer  _______________________________________________________________________________________________ Variant 3, 1983, Serial number F16851, Kassnar Import Kassnar Rollmark, Imported by Kassnar Imports, Inc over Harrisburg, PA 17112  Flared grip base  Straight or flat slide rear, rowel hammer and P9M slide stop  |
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Post by beczl on Jan 10, 2021 12:28:45 GMT -5
...The date of manufacture has always been of great interest to FEG owners. Many dates were approximated and based upon original date of purchase, mainly through Kassnar and KBI, the PJK-9HP, which was marked both the P9 and FP9. Do you have any P9 specific serial number/date of manufacture information you can share. Would the FP9 serial number/date of manufacture apply to the P9 as well. or at least partially?... Thanks, Todd. I can manage the pictures. If I have any trouble I will contact you, I promise.  About serial numbers. I have a list of all types of 'Parabellum' pistols serials range per year. This is based on the following sources: - Hungarian Foreign Trade Database and Archive (from 1970-2005) - FÉG files from Hungarian National Archive Reference code XXIX-F-363 and XXIX-F-364 (from 1970-2005) - Hungarian FÉG collectors own database - Hungarian Weapon Testing Company database (from 1991-2005) - Weapon Trading report which starting from 1991-2005 twice a year. This contains all produced weapons number types and serial. In some cases, data are not completed or missing, especially during the communist regime collapsed, but I tried to puzzled the missing gaps based on the above sources of data. Just some additional info about serial numbers:
FÉG produced their weapons in a batch, and six months in advance they had to plan how many weapons do they want to produce. They need to report the planned numbers with serials to the company management board. This is because they need to coordinate the trading and storage part as well as the weapon testing company had limited resources and their capacity is capped. I don't know how pistols produced in other companies, but the FÉG did the following: 1.) FÉG manufactured all of the pistol frames and slides in the actual year. They produced a limited number of extra parts because they had limited storage capacity. At this time all parts must be stored in a secured and guarded area only. 2.) The manufactured main parts passed to the different assembler teams. One finished the frame, the other is the slide. (this is for security reason) 3.) The final assemblers put a barrel in the pistol, rolled all serials into the weapons then send it to the internal shooting test. If the test was successful the pistol sent to another test at point 4.) 4.) The pistol finally sends to the National Weapon Test Firm whose tests it again, and an issued certificate about it. 5.) The pistols are packaged and stored in the FÉG central weapon armory. In a lot of cases, the weapon is passed an internal test, but their final test was failed. The pistol send back to the FÉG and fixed the issue (they had most issues about the barrel) but it takes time because repairing always had a lower priority. That means very often a 100 batch pistols contain different serial even from past years. Especially pistols which used shared serial pool: BXXXXX, LXXXXX, FXXXXX, VXXXXX, RXXXXX. In your case your weapon could produced in earlier then test certification issued. This is a manufacturing report about the produced number of pistols from 1991 when FÉG goes on bankrupt and the Court ordered its liquidation. (you can open it on higher resolution in a new window)  I have all serial numbers for produced guns, based on that we can identify 95% when the weapon is produced. Also I have partial serialnumbers, but full report about exported guns number from the following importers: Erwin Daigger International Gun Co., Tucson, Arizona USA Carl Walter Sportwaffen Gmbh, Ulm West-Germany Century Arms Inc. / Century International Arms Inc., Georgia, Vermont USA Century Arms Inc. / Century International Arms Inc., Boca Raton, Florida USA Eduard Kettner GmbH, Vösendorf, Austria Kassnar B. International Inc., Harrisburg, Pennsylvania USA Kassnar Imports Inc., Harrisburg, Pennsylvania USA Kassnar International Ltd., London, England Interarms Imports Inc., Alexandria, Virginia USA Israel Arms & Ammunition Ltd., Tel Aviv, Israel Kleinguenther Distinctive Firearms Inc., Seguin, Texas USA Mauser-Werke Oberndorf GmbH, Oberndorf am Neckar, Germany Precision Imports Inc., San Antonio, Texas USA P.W. Arms Inc., Redmond, Washington USA Sarco Inc., Stirling, New Jersey USA Springfield Armory Inc., Geneseo, Illinois USA Ssme Deutsche Waffen Inc., Plant City, Florida USA Tennessee Guns International Inc., Knoxville, Tennessee USA Also had report pistols which exported for military purpose. Details are still confidental and can not be accessible for research. So military pistols details based on the following agencies reports: - ITAR & COARM arms cross boarding reports - Bonn International Center for Conversion - British American Security Information Council - Federation of American Scientists Arms Sales Monitoring Project - Hungarian Trade Licensing Office National Report on Arms Export Controls - Stockhold International Peace Research Institute - World Policy Institute |
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Post by beczl on Jan 10, 2021 12:38:22 GMT -5
Laszlo, I am fascinated with your information and will be reading your every word. I have only one FEG (B 14,XXX / import marked K.B.I. ,INC HARRISBURG, PA and CAI Georgia VT.) and look forward to new and accurate info re production and date of production. It has some quirks! Thank you, Tim So your pistol has both Kassnar and CAI marked, that is strange. By the way B14XXX cover P9 and P9M as well. But I think you have P9 because of KBI marks. Based on my data this is could be produced in Q1 1986. This is the BXXXXX serial range. Number refer to the actual year's latest produced serial nr.  |
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Post by tnorris on Jan 10, 2021 14:02:28 GMT -5
I have guessed the CAI mark, which is more crudely applied, was a secondary import mark. I have corresponded with another owner who has the same markings but without the CAI addition. His serial number is in the (B 18XXX) range, appx 4000 higher than mine. His pistol is flawed as well... tolerances not standard to the FN High power. Thank you for such a quick reply.
I will now continue to absorb your information! Cheers, Tim
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