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Post by beczl on Jan 10, 2021 15:37:47 GMT -5
After FP9 I want to tell you a story about one of my favorite real curiosity, the P9RA pistol.In 1982 a P9RA S&W type alloy frame pistol which is the child of FP9 and P9R is started to develop by Jozsef Kameniczky. After many successful alloy framed smaller pistols like PA-63 AP-9, RK-59, RK-61 FÉG want to create similar but larger size pistols. During development, they had a lot of issues with the alloy frame strength even they increased the alloy Titan to 0,15%. Also because of Kameniczky's retirement, the development was on hold, and only a year later in 1984, the modified version test batch goes on production. Unfortunately, after 132 pieces production (serials TF XXXXX) finally stopped, because after its durability test every fourth frame cracked. From our point of view, the interesting is to the remaining P9RA slides with ventilated ribs were modified a bit in 1987 (did not mill the slide rotating safety cutout) and will be used for later on the FP9 V4 production. That is the reason why its slide had a curved backside. Some pictures: New pistols under test: February 18, 1983, FÉG photo archive  The P9RA drawing and photo  The two last produced P9RA nature and black anodized version Serial Nr.: TF 000132 and TF 00131. You can see the bigger slide stopper cutout on teh frames. This was also visible on FP9 V1. Also notable the built in alloy sling hook at the frame bottom.     
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 10, 2021 17:20:12 GMT -5
Thanks for the information on the P9RA, very interesting.
If it is not too much to ask, I am hoping you might explain and expand on a few things you posted regarding the P9 pistols and variants. The chart from 1992 on the Parabellum pistols/decoding serial numbers shows the various FEG pistols and numerous Hi Power clone variations, including, but not limited to the P9, P9M, FP9, P9MA, P9MC (the following letters of a C (assuming chrome) and A (assuming alloy).
I was wondering if you might expand on the different characteristics of the P9 series and numerous variants, such as flared grip, straight grip, round back of slide, flat rear of slide, P9M slide stop vs Browning style slide stop, small sights vs larger sights Browning style small safety vs the FEG expanded safety(which is an excellent safety lever) etc. Similar to what you did previously with the FP9 four variants, which was extremely helpful for identifying the FP9.
Also, on that same chart, under the Angolul/English column, it notes for various P9s,P9Ms etc with the following names...."Browning system", "enhanced", "modernized" and "New Browning". I assume one would be the Hi Power style pistol with the S&W internals. What are they and what do the refer to.
I also find it interesting with all of the variants of the Hi Power FEG produced, they did not make a Detective (compact) sized clone. I know they did a compact P9RK, but no true or near true Hi Power clone compact pistol.
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Post by beczl on Jan 11, 2021 0:16:15 GMT -5
...If it is not too much to ask, I am hoping you might explain and expand on a few things you posted regarding the P9 pistols and variants. The chart from 1992 on the Parabellum pistols/decoding serial numbers shows the various FEG pistols and numerous Hi Power clone variations, including, but not limited to the P9, P9M, FP9, P9MA, P9MC (the following letters of a C (assuming chrome) and A (assuming alloy).... Here it is the summary of all type of FÉG HP clones. It contains the explanation of all weapon's name. (please open in a new window for higher resolution). I attached it to the MS Excel format if somebody prefers to use it.  Attachments:FEG_HP_Summary.xlsx (21.31 KB)
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Post by beczl on Jan 11, 2021 0:37:42 GMT -5
...I was wondering if you might expand on the different characteristics of the P9 series and numerous variants, such as flared grip, straight grip, round back of slide, flat rear of slide, P9M slide stop vs Browning style slide stop, small sights vs larger sights Browning style small safety vs the FEG expanded safety(which is an excellent safety lever) etc. Similar to what you did previously with the FP9 four variants, which was extremely helpful for identifying the FP9.... Well, FEG pistols characteristic is always a pain point from a collectors perspective, because the firm always mixed its components, especially smaller ones during the manufacturing timeline. This is because FÉG had lack of storage, and in this case they did not produce enough spare parts (1pcs kit per every 100 pistols as per their policy). So sometimes during manufacturing, they used as they found. That cause why so many variations of the FEG pistols exist. This is valid for P9 straight grip and P9M flared grip as well. Between 1975 and 1980 99% of P9 have a straight grip. But after 1980 they started to produce flared grips for P9M, then from 1982 for FP9, the older P9 some cases get this flared version instead of straight grips. FÉG did not have a rule on which pistols get this version of grips. If the assembler was run out of one type of grip might used a different one. This is because FÉG factory workers did not get hourly wages, but payed only after their performance. So if they can not produce pistols, they get nothing. That forced them to use all type of parts some cases. Finally, P9 / P9M had shared serial pool B XXXXX, P9M / FP9 have F XXXXX, P9R / P9RC / Luger M90 have R XXXXX. That cause sometimes hard to identify which model do we talking about. I saw many P9 designated to P9M on paper, but it's a true P9... This is similar for small vs larger sight case. Larger sights come with P9M models, since then they used it beside older smaller ones. About small vs extended safety, and slide locks we have the same situation. I planned to post a detailed explanation for all models, but it takes time.  |
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Post by beczl on Jan 11, 2021 0:48:25 GMT -5
...I also find it interesting with all of the variants of the Hi Power FEG produced, they did not make a Detective (compact) sized clone. I know they did a compact P9RK, but no true or near true Hi Power clone compact pistol.... They never planned to create a true Hi-Power clone compact pistol. This is about the 'License agreement' which they bought from FN Belgium, which contains some limitation to use about original HP design. This was led to develop the S&W style P9R series. By the way, after 1990, when the agreement was gone with the regime change they tried to use the original Browning style mechanism for small pistols, but it can not handle pressure and forces. In this case they developed three types of compact/pocket pistols 9mm P9RZ, and .40 calibre 40RZ, 40RK, but all of them used the S&W mechanism. |
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Post by beczl on Jan 11, 2021 1:27:49 GMT -5
I created two slides for a better understanding. The first is contain how many pistols are manufactured in each fiscal year.  The other is about how its serials distribution looks like per year.  Both are based on the official FÉG and National archives records that I listed previously, so I am sure it's 99% valid. Currently, I working on more detailed charts, which based on the quarterly production and monthly sales reports. Unfortunately, those reports are only partially available, so I need to be careful when used its content. |
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Post by beczl on Jan 11, 2021 5:36:24 GMT -5
General P9 / P9M rollmarks timeline. Mauser, Luger, Kareen and counterfeit Browning versions will came later.  |
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 12, 2021 14:49:11 GMT -5
Great information on production of FEG Hi Power clones and other pistols.
I see some of the charts have listings for the counterfeit FN FEG Hi powers. I have heard of many rumors on how these came to be, one if I recall was an arms dealer promised an order of Hi Powers, possibly for Saddam Hussein in Iraq, FN declined the order and the arms broker went to FEG, but needed the FN rollmark. Not sure if this has any truth to it or not.
Do you have any background on the counterfeit FN FEGs?
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Post by beczl on Jan 12, 2021 15:25:05 GMT -5
Great information on production of FEG Hi Power clones and other pistols. I see some of the charts have listings for the counterfeit FN FEG Hi powers. I have heard of many rumors on how these came to be, one if I recall was an arms dealer promised an order of Hi Powers, possibly for Saddam Hussein in Iraq, FN declined the order and the arms broker went to FEG, but needed the FN rollmark. Not sure if this has any truth to it or not. Do you have any background on the counterfeit FN FEGs? Yes sure. So the story of Counterfeit Brownings. As you could already know Hungary needs $$$ and had a good relationship with Arab countries, especially Egypt, Iraq. Starting from mid 70's Hungary Foreign trade ministry sold them cars, trucks, Hungarian companies built hospitals, warehouses, industrial buildings as well as FÉG tried to sell them as many weapons and ammo as they can produce. Since Saddam Hussein seized the presidency of Iraq in 1979, he has made no secret of his ambitions to become the preeminent power in the Persian Gulf and the sword of the Arabs against the West. This planned to do by military strength and the will to use it. In 1980, Iraq attacked neighboring Iran, initiating a war that would last eight years. At one point, in the 1980s, Iraq was the biggest importer of arms in the world. Because most Western nations participated in a total arms embargo against Iraq, they are seeking other sources. This was the Soviet Union and its allies Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary of course. In 1986 June Tariq Aziz, the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Iraq started to visit each of those countries to buy as many weapons as they can. They visited Hungary on June 10, 1986, just a day after he's got deals with Romania. In Hungary they bought many heavy weapons, small arms also visited the FÉG weapon factory on June 11, were presented them a various type of FÉG produced heavy, medium weapons and finally the small arms production line. According to the Hungarian secret service report, and the notes of the FÉG chief architect, when Tariq Aziz saw the FÉG P9 pistols they think FÉG produced Browning Hi-Powers. He tells the Hungarians to Iraq military personnel and police officers are really like and prefer to use Browning Hi-Power and the government wants to buy as much as they can, but because of the embargo, it's quite difficult. Hungarians tell them it is a Hungarian version of Browning, without original FN marks, because it's produced on the domestic market (but we know it was not true). Then when Aziz asked do they also produce fully licensed products? They said yes of course. Later on, during the negotiation FÉG presents Aziz the original FN Belgium documentation to prove they produce those weapons with FN approval. This is fully convinced him. So they get a deal for 20.000 pistols overall 4.2m$ 210$/pcs price, which was a quite high price, but because of the embargo they can not able to buy similar weapons with lower price. Just off the record, at this time a P9 domestic price was 4.200HUF, and the export price was 80$ in a small batch. a higher batch was 72$. So Iraq think they will be bought original Browning HP's. But we know that's only partially true. By the way, the deal is a deal, so FÉG seeking a solution to how they can fulfill Iraq's order. The cheapest way was to create then put original FN roll marks on the pistols, beside Belgian test marks to the trigger guard, and barrel to convince them it's a true Belgian HP. The plan is worked and Iraqis never know they've got a bit overpriced Hungarian pistols, even the pistol could have the same quality as the original FN HP. Soon after the first shipment reached Iraq, the Hungarian Foreign Trade Ministry get a letter from Taha Yassin Ramadan, the First Deputy Prime Minister which letter appreciate Hungary's support to help them to bought Browning pistols, besides other small arms. According to available documentation, they ordered 19.000pcs pistols but based on export documents only 18.036 exported. We don't know why this discrepancy. Counterfeit Brownings serial range: 5.141pcs from B 20500 - B 28810 range 12.895pcs from L 22500 - L 36500 range FÉG manufactures those weapons between 1987-1988 with the following variation. P9 straight grip frame, round back of the slide, original Browning style slide stop, rowel hammer, small sights, small safety, FN style pistol lanyard ring at the grip left side (only half of them had this feature). 90% of the counterfeit FÉG HP's phosphated (parkerized), and only 10% blued. Its 90% had black plastic grips with lanyard ring cutout, only less than 10% had regular wood grips, without cutout. As a general rule phosphated version had black plastic grips, blued had wood grips. FÉG used their regular serial number B XXXXX and L XXXXX pools, but not in a straight line. They put Belgian proof marks on the barrel, the trigger guard right side, but not all case. Also, the slide left side had a roll mark "FABRIQUE NATIONALE HERSTAL BELGIQUE BROWNING'S PATENT DEPOSE". This roll mark placement and its two-line spacing were not consistent. This is because marks rolled on the pistol semi-manually, and not by an automated machine that used a template as usually. By the way, FÉG counterfeit can be distinguished by the real Brownings to their slide different serration design, which is always 22 + a half. By the way, this was applicable not only to the counterfeit models but all other FÉG models as well. This half serration is coming from their quite old Czech-made Skoda slide milling machines which were hard to calibrate. Also, the trigger guard upper side had a different slope. Now I have to go. I will post some pics and additonal info tomorrow. |
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Post by beczl on Jan 13, 2021 1:50:40 GMT -5
One of the letters that Iraq authorities sent to Hungary in 1986. This is from Taha Yassin Ramadan, the First Deputy Prime Minister to Laszlo Toth (misspelling in the letter) FEG director.  Counterfeit Brownings roll marks and Belgian proof marks placement.  |
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Post by beczl on Jan 14, 2021 0:20:02 GMT -5
I forgot to mention, to FÉG make their pistols even more similar to the original FN Brownings, the Hungarian export firm Ferunion Technics Kft. ("Ferunion" Technics Ltd.) Budapest Hungary bought thousands of Belgian made military surplus green canvas Browning HP pouches. Then put it in the pistols crate, so the pistols delivered with those pouches, to enhance Iraq satisfaction. I think they are hope for additional orders from Iraq, so they are bought a lot of pouches. Because lack of order from Iraq, around the early 90's it was sold in an FÉG shop as bargains, where I also bought a pouch for myself.  those pouches |
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Post by beczl on Jan 14, 2021 0:32:45 GMT -5
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Post by beczl on Jan 14, 2021 0:38:33 GMT -5
Their pistol technical specifications summary in Metric and Imperial unit.   Upcoming chapters: - Export versions, companies, timeline, numbers, etc.. - Israel Arms and Ammunition a.k.a. Kareen pistols history - German and Austrian Mauser and Luger exports - Rare or uncommon variations - .40 P9/P9M's with S&W style mechanism - The Philippines and Chinease connection |
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 14, 2021 16:59:06 GMT -5
Still amazed at your level and detail and supporting documentation. Great FEG research. I am looking forward to information on the Kareen Hi Powers. There has always been a lot of guess work about them, weather FEG and parts assembled in Israel, etc.
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Post by beczl on Jan 16, 2021 12:53:45 GMT -5
FYA: The previously posted sheets about serial numbers and manufacturing dates were not correct in relation to KAREEN pistols with IAA XXXX Serials. I forgot to incorporate the KAREEN individual research data into those sheets, unfortunately. I fixed it. The Israeli story started in the same era when the previous Counterfeit Brownings. Starting from the 70's Israel biggest income source was its weapon import/export. Besides, they have imported so many weapons for test, evaluation, or simply sell to 3rd parties or their allies. In October 1985 a new company J.O. Israel Arms Ltd. from Israel, through the importer K.S.N Industrial Ltd. Israel gets a contract with FEG to produce 2.500 Dragunov SVD, 8.500pcs AMD-65, 11.000pcs AKM-63, and 28.000pcs AK-47 assault rifles, which they want to import to the US. Also bought a bunch of sample P9 and P9M pistols (besides some other pistols as well) for testing purpose. The test evaluation outcome was to the FÉG pistols are reliable, robust, and cheap, so they want more to buy. 1986-1988 ********* In 1986 the company get a contract with FÉG for 28.000pcs P9 pistols. The pistols characteristic was the P9M Flared grip, 10% rowel, 90% spur hammer, P9 slide lock, roll marks made by FÉG. Unfortunately, the State Department and BATF regulations concerning trade with communist countries, and also K.S.N. had some issue about the prepayment/deposit which they need to be paid to Hungarian export firm, so that caused only less than 4.000pcs was manufactured and imported into the US in three years. (This issue was affected not only Browning pistols but other weapons which they ordered too.) The remaining 24.000pcs order was canceled at this time. Serials: 1986 - B 18700 - B 21343 1.450pcs 1987 - B 21343 - B 25600 1.500pcs 1988 - B 27200 - B 29100 1.045pcs 1996-1999 ********* Eight years later in 1996, Richard Nahman established a new contract with FÉG for the remaining pistols again. FÉG started to manufacture their pistols with a brand new IAA serial, which refers to Israel Arms & Ammunition Ltd, even officially their weapons sell to J.O. Israel Arms Ltd. Israel. By the way, after 350 pistols, they had a financial issue again, and they want to FÉG to renegotiate their contract, decrease their pistol prices by 20-30%. FÉG did not agree to this and proposed if they want to decrease the price, they could sell the pistols in a kit form, then they can assembly the pistols by own. Richard Nahman accepts the proposal and started to export 9.650pcs P9 pistol from IAA batch in kit form, directly to Israel Arms & Ammunition Ltd. Houston, Texas USA. The pistols characteristic was P9M Straight grip, 90% rowel, 10% spur hammer, P9 slide lock, roll marks made by FÉG in the first 350pcs, then roll marks applied in the USA by Israel Arms & Ammunition Ltd. Both case serials applied by FÉG. Serials: 1996 IAA 0001 - IAA 0350 350pcs 1997-1999 IAA 0351 - IAA 9999 9.650pcs in a kit 1999-2000 ********* In 1999 both the serials and the export route was changed by financial reason again. Instead of direct import to the US, they imported the pistols by their Israel firm first then re-export them to the USA. The pistols characteristic was P9 Straight grip, 50% rowel, 50% spur hammer, P9 slide lock. Roll marks applied by Israel Arms & Ammunition Ltd. in the US, serials applied by FÉG before export. Serials: L 80050 - L 99999 14.000pcs in a kit (had a few gaps between serials) Rollmarks ********  About parts: ************ As far as we know no part for FÉG Browning's manufactured in Israel. We have an FÉG collector, former FÉG engineer dr. Csaba Kaszás, who examined eight different Kareen in the 2000s. He's partially disassembled all of them and convinced all of the internal parts are made by FÉG. About import/export: ******************** The import/export business can sometimes be confusing as to who was/is actually doing what. The relationship between FÉG, J.O. Arms, Israel Arms Ltd., and Israel Arms & Ammunition Ltd. is rather complex, so here are some details. In June 1984 Richard Nahman incorporated J.O. Arms Ltd. at 5709 Hartsdale Drive Houston, Texas USA. They imported handguns manufactured mainly in Israel that were exported from Israel by K.S.N. Industries Kfar Saba, Israel and K.S.N. Industries Tel Aviv Israel (This was two different and individual company!!!). He incorporated another two companies in October 1993 named Firearms International Ltd. and Gamma Premium Co. at the same address. Gamma Premium Co responsible for the distribution, while Firearms International Ltd. doing import business. In 1995 Larry Horner, owner of Liberty Armory in Liberty Texas USA and was contracted by several individuals for the assembly of weapons. Horner began assembling the pistols to the J.O. Arms Ltd. and they are contracted to use J.O. Arms Ltd.'s name initially on all of their firearms, instead of the name of Firearms International Ltd. A year later in November 1996 two company established in Israel, named: Israel Arms Ltd., and J.O. Israel Arms & Ammunition Ltd. with the address of Shtempeper 27 Petah Tikva Israel, incorporated by Richard Nahman. Also a new company Israel Arms International Ltd. 5709 Hartsdale Drive Houston, Texas USA was originally established to market and sell firearms by other export companies. In September 2004 all of Richard Nahman's companies were acquired by a merger and continues to operate under Firearms International Ltd. by different people.  Starting from 1995 the following US-based companies imported J.O. Israel Arms Ltd. and J.O. Israel Arms & Ammunition Ltd remaining weapons directly from Israel with a "Made In Israel" advertisement. - Interarms Imports Inc., Houston, Texas USA - Century International Arms Inc., Georgia, Vermont USA - Sarco Inc., Stirling, New Jersey USA - Cole's Distributing Inc. CDI Sales, Glasgow, Kentucky, USA |
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