Hi Power Rollmarks

[ToddSig]

May 2, 2023 5:47:32 GMT -5 P35Fundi said:

I am looking at a Hi Power right now with 
Left Side Slide
Browning Arms Company Morgan Utah & Montreal PQ
              Made In Belgium

Right Side Slide
absolutely nothing on the slide... only marks are on the frame's trigger guard.

Have y'all ever seen a P35 with an entirely  sterile right side slide?

Serial # is 76Cxxxxx

Blued
traditional low profile irons
spur hammer
The conical muzzle protector that was common on the slides of that year. 

Thanks and God Bless

Welcome to HPC. For a Browning marked Hi Power of that period, the right side of the slide is clean with no roll marks. It was around 1979 when the “MADE IN BELGIUM” over “BY FABRIQUE NATIONALE HERSTAL” mark was added to the slide.

Here is an image of a 1977 Browning Hi Power, right side of the slide.

[P35Fundi]

Thanks for the info!

[CXM]

FN was licensed by Browning to produce many Browning designs some of which were quite similar to Colt's made Browning designs. In most cases Browning (and later his heirs) held the patents for guns he designed though this was not always the case... Winchester owned the rights to at least a few early Browning designs.

Browning's designs were manufactured by three companies for the most part... Colt's, FN and Winchester. Where more than one maker produced the same gun, there were stipulations in the licensing agreement as to what parts of the world in which those makers could sell the Browning designs they were licensed to produce. As an example, FN has/had the rights to make the Browning designed M1919 machine gun, the M=2 50 Cal HMG (which they still produce) and the BAR. FN could not however sell those guns just anywhere... FN had rights for Europe, mid east and Africa. Colt's has the rights for North and South America, Asia and Australia... Colt's was usually the U.S. licensee for Browning military designs.

FWIW

Chuck

[pjk9hp]

Oct 19, 2022 12:46:20 GMT -5 ToddSig said:

Oct 18, 2022 22:12:01 GMT -5 pjk9hp said:

Good day to everyone. Does anyone know when was the roll mark "Browning's Patent Depose" removed from the High Power slide? Thanks.

Interesting question. The Browning commercial imports do not have it, nor do the FN roll marked Browning SA (mostly European Sales) Hi Powers. Not sure on the more recent FN America, or if they had. I think most FN roll marked pistols had with some exceptions I suspect on some FN surplus High Powers. But dates, dont know, but I think it might be more of a anomaly than standard practice?

Hi ToddSig,

I just read Blake Stevens' mentioning of below statement (page 273 from his "The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol):
"292. Left side view of the current FN 9mm MK3 High Power, the latest iteration of the design from the originators of this famous pistol. Note the beefier adjustable sights, each in its own dovetail, and the maker's legend, which for the first time in over 50 years no longer includes the familiar but outdated "BROWNING'S PATENT DEPOSE"."
"The 'MK3', introduced early in 1988, is FN's current production version of the single-action High Power pistol."

That means the roll mark was excluded in 1988.

[ToddSig]

Jul 1, 2023 1:12:16 GMT -5 pjk9hp said:

Oct 19, 2022 12:46:20 GMT -5 ToddSig said:

Interesting question. The Browning commercial imports do not have it, nor do the FN roll marked Browning SA (mostly European Sales) Hi Powers. Not sure on the more recent FN America, or if they had. I think most FN roll marked pistols had with some exceptions I suspect on some FN surplus High Powers. But dates, dont know, but I think it might be more of a anomaly than standard practice?

Hi ToddSig,

I just read Blake Stevens' mentioning of below statement (page 273 from his "The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol):
"292. Left side view of the current FN 9mm MK3 High Power, the latest iteration of the design from the originators of this famous pistol. Note the beefier adjustable sights, each in its own dovetail, and the maker's legend, which for the first time in over 50 years no longer includes the familiar but outdated "BROWNING'S PATENT DEPOSE"."
"The 'MK3', introduced early in 1988, is FN's current production version of the single-action High Power pistol."

That means the roll mark was excluded in 1988.

Thanks for finding and posting a credible source on the roll mark changes. Usually if you dig deep enough there are explanations.

[dsalamone]

Was there ever a time that the slides had no roll mark what so ever? Have a pistol that is supposedly an early import but does not have any roll marks, just proof marks. So not sure if it is a FN or not. Serial (30954) also is not listed as one that would possibly be in the 54-57 import, although I know Serial numbers during that time are squirrely.

Have a few more pics but only lets me post 3

Attachments:

[ToddSig]

Jul 18, 2023 12:03:31 GMT -5 dsalamone said:

Was there ever a time that the slides had no roll mark what so ever? Have a pistol that is supposedly an early import but does not have any roll marks, just proof marks. So not sure if it is a FN or not. Serial (30954) also is not listed as one that would possibly be in the 54-57 import, although I know Serial numbers during that time are squirrely.

Have a few more pics but only lets me post 3

Welcome to HPC dsalamone. From what I can see you have an FEG Hi Power clone. The proof marks are Hungarian, such as the NPv nitro mark. The slide stop is also similar to other FEG slide stops and a variation from the FN style. But the slide cut notch appears to be for the FN style slide stop. Perhaps it was switched out. Not sure why no roll marks but we have seen this before. Does it have an internal or external extractor. FN 1954-1957 would all have an internal extractor. I cant see from the image the barrel bushing on the slide, for all FEG it should be the hog nosed version, not flat.  How many slide serrations does the slide have. 22 1/2? I cant tell from the image if the furthest rearward cut is a half or full. if a half then FEG. Many FNs had 23 slide serrations. Also, does the serial number have a prefix, such as a B, F or L? Those prefixes would also indicate FEG.

I cant see the barrel bushing from the slide. FEG barrel bushing are of the hog nosed (not flat) style. If your bushing it flat, perhaps it was ground down if/when roll marks removed??? or if it is flat perhaps it is an FN slide on an FEG frame. 

It is possible the slide and frame were put together but need more images to know if they started life out together or not. Post an image of the underside of slide and full serial number, barrel bushing and a close up of the slide serrations. Check the barrel lug for additional proof marks. Also what were you told when you obtained the pistol?

Check out this thread on our Forum for a similar situation and info on Hungarian proof marks and slide serrations.

highpowercollectors.proboards.com/thread/1294/identification-rollmarks-stamps

Go ahead and post again with the additional images, just add three to each post.

Interesting pistol and thanks for sharing.

[dsalamone]

Thanks for the quick response. See below for futher info

• was told it was a FN Browning hi-power. early 54-57 import
• Serial - 30954, no pre-fix
• 23 slide serrations
  
• It has the internal extractor

Attachments:

[dsalamone]

Few more Pics

Attachments:

[ToddSig]

Thanks for the additional images. With the additional information, definitely not an FEG, with the flat bushing, 23 slide serrations, internal extractor, and thumb print depression on the slide, all indicate an FN produced Hi Power pre 1961/62. I also found the NPv mark was also used by Austria. Many of the Hungarian and Austrian marks seem to be conflated, with some used during the empire and also post empire/post war. Vanderlinden states on page 210 in his 3rd edition regarding The Austrian Hungarian Empire, "All firearms imported into the empire were proofed in either the Vienna (that would be the NPv mark) Prague, Weipert, Ferlach or Budapest proof house." But that is not quantified by a date range.

The other mark, an eagle, looks like the Austrian black powder mark. I have no explantion on the lack of roll marks. And the slide stop is definitely a replacement, so you might wish to look for an FN slide stop. You can usually find them used on EBay.

Perhaps it was imported into Austria and proofed there rather than in Belgium by FN and there was some carry over in the markings post empire/post war. I would say mid to late 1950s, FN, with a destination for Austria. Vanderlinden, 3rd edition, page 782 also states, The Austrian Bundesheer (Army) used approximately 500 High Power pistols between 1955 and 1965. These pistols were a mixture of newly acquired FN commercial and wartime surplus High Powers." Perhaps it was one of those??? You might wish to reach to Anthony Vanderlinden, the author of FN Browning Pistols and show him some images.   [e-mail]


Perhaps someone else on HPC can add more to the Austrian/Hungarian proof marks.

Hope this helps and thanks for sharing.

[ToddSig]

You might also look as some of the parts for a small number with lines around it. These would be the manufacture date of the part. Look on the barrel lug, underside of the slide, the trigger, trigger guard, hammer, firing pin plate etc. This would help date the part, and then the pistol assembled and serialized after that date.

[dsalamone]

Thanks for the info!

[pjk9hp]

The markings on the barrel and on the bottom of the frame is the same as that of an Austrian contract crest. See this link:

highpowercollectors.proboards.com/post/4406