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Post by tpelle on Apr 2, 2018 10:24:39 GMT -5
With all of the different variations of authentic FN rollmarks appearing on pistols from various eras I thought it might be helpful if we compiled a photographic record of rollmarks. I suggest that we identify the year of manufacture of the pistol shown in the photo, or at least the era that the pistol is from, as well as any other information that the user feels is important. This is merely the result of one morning's armchair research Googling for FN Hi Power photos on the Internet. If anyone else can document other rollmarks, please feel free to add them in a reply. Early FN with tangent sights. Rollmark is 3-lines, reading "FABRIQUE NATIONALE D'ARMES DE GUERRE / HERSTAL BELGIQUE / BROWNING'S PATENT DEPOSE". Note that lines 1 and 2 are in the same font, but line 3 is executed in a smaller font.  WWII Waffenamt pistol made under German occupation of the FN plant. Rollmark is 3-lines the same as the tangent sighted pistol above, except that there is less horizontal space between the words in line 2:  T-Series FN with 2-line rollmark reading "FABRIQUE NATIONALE D'ARMES DE GUERRE HERSTAL-BELGIQUE / BROWNING'S PATENT DEPOSE". Note that both lines are executed in a small font, both lines being the same size.  FN MKIII pistol dated to 1992. 1-line rollmark reading "FABRIQUE NATIONALE HERSTAL - BELGIQUE". Note that the rollmark is executed in a fairly large font, and that there is no mention of the Browning patent:  |
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Post by Bob Reed on Apr 2, 2018 10:41:38 GMT -5
Excellent idea, Tpelle.
This will be a good info to have - plus looking at all the different roll marks is interesting. My favorite FN roll mark is probably the one liner, like on your Mk III.
BTW: I moved your thread to our Reference Section - it's better suited there.
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Post by abninftr on Apr 2, 2018 22:24:49 GMT -5
The old fnhipower.com website that Stephen Camp and I had an article detailing roll marks.
One of you Google wizards might be able to dig it up.
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Post by tpelle on Apr 3, 2018 10:00:12 GMT -5
Here is an FN MKII dated to 1987 (Ser. No. 245PNxxxxx) with a 2-line rollmark reading "FABRIQUE NATIONALE HERSTAL BELGIQUE / BROWNING'S PATENT DEPOSE". Line 1 is in a larger font than is line 2.  I would like to note at this point that the wording on the above rollmark is identical to the rollmark that appears on the FEG Counterfeit FN Hi Powers that have turned up in shipments of surplus Hi Powers coming in to the country from the middle east. The only difference that I see, and this is from examining the Ser. No. L xxxxx pistol in my possession, is that the FEG rollmark top line is in a slightly smaller font than on the MKII (But still larger than line 2), and that line 2 is slightly closer to line 1 so that it is not obscured by the semicircular pad on the slide stop. My FEG Counterfeit is shown in the following picture: |
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Post by pjk9hp on Apr 4, 2018 0:24:39 GMT -5
Browning Arms Company rollmarks (I have no information on what year they were born) BROWNING ARMS COMPANY ST. LOUIS Ma. MADE IN BELGIUM  BROWNING ARMS COMPANY MORGAN, UTAH & MONTREAL P.Q. MADE IN BELGIUM  BROWNING ARMS COMPANY ST. LOUIS Ma. & MONTREAL P.Q. MADE IN BELGIUM  |
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Post by pjk9hp on Apr 4, 2018 0:28:39 GMT -5
From FN Herstal, imported by HOWCO (early '80's?). FABRIQUE NATIONALE HERSTAL HIGH POWER 88 MADE IN BELGIUM  FABRIQUE NATIONALE HERSTAL HIGH POWER 88 MADE IN BELGIUM  |
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Post by ruber on Apr 4, 2018 10:26:19 GMT -5
Great thread! Here is one to add to the Browning roll marks, wish I had a better picture of the whole gun with the original grips, I may put them back on to clean this one up a bit: Serial-245PY prefix, 1982  Single line on left- "BROWNING ARMS COMPANY MORGAN, UTAH & MONTREAL P.Q."  Two lines on right- "MADE IN BELGIUM" "BY FABRIQUE NATIONALE HERSTAL"  |
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Post by ToddSig on Apr 4, 2018 15:00:15 GMT -5
I have a spare 77c slide with typical FN roll mark, but in front of the ejection port, it is marked BROWNING ARMS COMPANY MORGAN UTAH & MONTREAL PQ MADE IN BELGIUM Browning must have imported the FN slide.   |
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Post by pjk9hp on Oct 18, 2022 22:12:01 GMT -5
Good day to everyone. Does anyone know when was the roll mark "Browning's Patent Depose" removed from the High Power slide? Thanks.
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Post by ToddSig on Oct 19, 2022 12:46:20 GMT -5
Good day to everyone. Does anyone know when was the roll mark "Browning's Patent Depose" removed from the High Power slide? Thanks. Interesting question. The Browning commercial imports do not have it, nor do the FN roll marked Browning SA (mostly European Sales) Hi Powers. Not sure on the more recent FN America, or if they had. I think most FN roll marked pistols had with some exceptions I suspect on some FN surplus High Powers. But dates, dont know, but I think it might be more of a anomaly than standard practice?  |
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Post by mssusr9501 on Oct 24, 2022 18:14:38 GMT -5
Highly speculative but I believe FNH accquired Browning in 1977 at which point they would have "owned" the patents and would not have needed to acknowledge the Browning name.
I would further speculate that the "Brownings Patent Depose" text was removed the next time the rolling die was replaced after the acquisition was completed.
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Post by tnorris on Oct 24, 2022 22:14:06 GMT -5
Highly speculative but I believe FNH accquired Browning in 1977 at which point they would have "owned" the patents and would not have needed to acknowledge the Browning name.I would further speculate that the "Brownings Patent Depose" text was removed the next time the rolling die was replaced after the acquisition was completed.
I'm not certain what you are getting at...
"Browning" the US company had nothing to do with the production or design of the High Power. The patents were always "owned" by FNH. John Browning also had very little to do with the High Power... I believe the mark "Browning Patent Depose" was mostly an homage to JMB, who designed so many fine guns for FNH.
My 21st century High Powers, Browning and FN USA marked, do not feature the homage.
Cheers,
Tim
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Post by mssusr9501 on Oct 27, 2022 11:02:12 GMT -5
I don't believe the patents were in fact owned by FN, at least not all of them. I believe that JMB was a partner with FN not an employee. I further believe that the bulk of his inventions were patented by him and were frequently licensed to FN for production. JMB was in essence the FN design partner.
Google translates the expression "Brownings Patent Déposé" as "Brownings Patent Filed" suggesting that perhaps the design contained elements designed by JMB and patents applied for or filed. By the time the P-35 was being designed, the term Browning had become a general European term for pistol due to the success of the model 1899 and 1900 designs produced by FN from Browning's designs. that may have had a different connotation at the time than we ascribe to it now.
Although FN certainly venerated Browning, it seems unlikely they would put his name on the P-35 solely for that reason. Their internal designer Dieudonné Joseph Saive, likely trained and mentored by JMB, completed the design of the P-35 and I suspect the design is as much his as JMB's.
Pretty interesting article with background on FN and their relationship with JMB here:
JMB was an established and successful designer long before he became involved with FN, with many patents to his name.
Thanks for your comments, always interesting to hear other view points.
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Post by tnorris on Oct 29, 2022 9:54:56 GMT -5
I don't believe the patents were in fact owned by FN, at least not all of them. I believe that JMB was a partner with FN not an employee. I further believe that the bulk of his inventions were patented by him and were frequently licensed to FN for production. JMB was in essence the FN design partner.
Google translates the expression "Brownings Patent Déposé" as "Brownings Patent Filed" suggesting that perhaps the design contained elements designed by JMB and patents applied for or filed.
Fabrique Nationale seems to have always had exclusive control of BHP production, and licensing to other companies (Inglis, FM, FEG). Browning USA never had such control. I put the word "owned" in quotes, alluding to control rather than outright ownership. Browning USA Company never had such control nor "ownership".
Indeed there were elements of John Browning designs in the High Power. It was also heavily influenced by D Saive. Some say the work was about 50/50 but it really does seem to be an FN/Saive pistol with inspiration from the rightfully exalted John Moses Browning. In this sense, for another pistol destined to be referred to as "the Browning", it made sense to add "Browning's Patent Déposé" to the roll mark, accurately suggesting the design contained elements of JMB with his patents on file.
I am fairly certain there was nothing for Fabrique Nationale to acquire. It is likely they just dropped "Brownings Patent Déposé" as a modernization attempt around the time of the MKlll. It is also possible that space was needed for the "Assembled In Portugal" roll mark in the (US market) Browning Marked pistols. Perhaps it was simply a a layout workaround. I have two FN USA pistols from the early 21st century. It seems they were experimenting with roll mark design and placement at the time. Each is different than my sole Browning marked pistol. None feature "Brownings Patent Déposé".
Cheers,
Tim
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Post by P35Fundi on May 2, 2023 5:47:32 GMT -5
I am looking at a Hi Power right now with
Left Side Slide
Browning Arms Company Morgan Utah & Montreal PQ
Made In Belgium
Right Side Slide
absolutely nothing on the slide... only marks are on the frame's trigger guard.
Have y'all ever seen a P35 with an entirely sterile right side slide?
Serial # is 76Cxxxxx
Blued
traditional low profile irons
spur hammer
The conical muzzle protector that was common on the slides of that year.
Thanks and God Bless
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