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Post by Bob Reed on Nov 17, 2017 19:37:21 GMT -5
Hello,
For the past year and a half or so, I've been carrying my COLT .45 Automatics quite a bit - and I dearly love the 1911, but, after literally decades of carrying a 13-shot, Browning HP, the 7-shot .45 is leaving a lot to be desired by me - when it comes to magazine capacity.
Now, a lot of the uncomfortable feeling of only having 7-shots at salvation vs. 13, is due to the greater chances of having to face-off with multiple goblins in todays world vs. yesteryears. Plus, I don't pretend in my own mind to be some expert gun slinger, even though my shooting skills aren't that bad.
So, after a lot of mulling this 7-Rd. vs. 10-Rds. vs. 13-Rds., ect., I've settled on 10-Rds. as being my minimum comfort level when it comes to pistol magazine capacity because, I just can't help but visualize there being at least 3 goblins
Also, keep in mind, "Caliber" doesn't even enter my mind as long as it's a service-size cartridge like, 9mm, Super .38, .40 S&W or .45 AUTO because, a 9-shot 9mm 1911 actually gives me more of a comforting feeling than a 7-shot .45 Automatic does...
Steve Camp always said, we're more than likely to run out of time before we run out of ammo - and I agree with his line of thought up to a certain point, BUT, what if we don't run out of time and those 2 or 3 extra rounds enabled us to put all the goblins on ice, and live to tell about it...
FWIW: I carry extra magazines on my belt, but I cannot imagine stopping during a string of fire in order to reload a loaded gun! Of course, switching out a partially spent magazine while behind cover is one thing, but only if you're sure you have the time to do it and, the shakes haven't set in to the point that your hands might not cooperate... I resorted to a break-action shotgun one night while under a great deal of stress - and believe me, that damn chamber would not hold still while I was trying to shove the shell in it.
So, what's your minimum comfort level when it comes to magazine capacity in today's world vs. yesteryears? |
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Post by abninftr on Nov 17, 2017 23:03:33 GMT -5
Mate, I've carried a large variety of handguns - almost everything from tried and trusted BHPs and 1911s to a S&W Model 10 and even a Walther PP, at one point or another during my working life. Some were my choice and others, the PP and the Model 10 for instance, were mandated for carry. That said, magazine capacity is not hugely important to me.
What does bother me is having to reload more frequently than I should to achieve the same result when it is because low capacity handguns, 1911s or revolvers for instance, or restricted capacity magazines (think G17 limited to 10 rds) have been mandated. That though, is about who is making the decision and not about the weapon.
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Post by CXM on Nov 18, 2017 9:21:41 GMT -5
The 'how many rounds is enough' conundrum is always interesting and often frustrating... How many rounds is enough? Someone or another said you need 'one more round left when the fight is over.' I'm not sure I feel entirely comfortable with that... I suppose if I'm allowed spare mags that would ok... For many years I carried 1911s almost exclusively. I found the Chip McCormick eight round magazines magazines worked ok for me... I took some consolation from the old FBI statistic that said the average gun fight was 2.6 rounds... which told me that with 8+1 in my Commander I could take part in three gun fights without even having to reload...  Still, I could find no answer to the question of how much ammo was enough. After agonizing and finding no real answer for some years I simply carried as much ammo as I could reasonably carry with me... usually being an eight round magazine in the Commander plus one in the chamber and the gun cocked and locked. I also carried two more eight round mags in a mag carrier on my belt. This served me well for quite a few years. To me the real question is how you manage the ammo you have. Should you (God forbid) have to get in a gun fight, there is a real risk of shooting the gun dry right off... which of course is why we carry spare magazines... and the 1911 mags can be changed very quickly indeed. Bottom line I suppose is I am comfortable with an eight round 1911 mag so long as I have a spare mag or two... I'm including this story of the outcome of shooting a magazine dry from Obummer's old hometown. I have posted this before, but I think it is extremely instructive on the question of ammo management so I"m posting it again... The gun used in this story is a High Power of some sort, I suspect it may be an Inglis. STORY FROM THE LAND OF OBUMMER: HOW TO KILL A BURGLAR
Nairobi One evening in the Kenyan capital late last year, my friend Sean Culligan endured an experience that, in several instructive ways, can be compared and contrasted with that of the Norfolk farmer Tony Martin. Sean is a mild-mannered man who, after retiring from the British military, settled in East Africa. He works for a medical charity that is held in high esteem. For a pastime he likes target shooting. He has a licensed pistol. ‘My military training tells me that if you have a gun, you should carry it,’ Sean tells me. ‘If you carry it, you should be prepared to use it.’
The incident occurred on a Friday evening in Nairobi’s suburbs, where Sean had arranged to pick up a doctor and colleague named Suzanne from her house. They were going on to a meeting downtown. When he arrived, Suzanne’s three-year-old daughter had just been put to bed. She asked him to wait a few minutes in the living-room while she got ready to go out.
In her bedroom, Suzanne heard her dogs begin to bark outside. Because of the high crime level in Kenyan cities, most middle-class households employ a night-watchman. Suzanne couldn’t understand why her guard wasn’t calming the dogs down. She looked through the curtains but saw nothing. It was after seven, and since Nairobi is on the Equator, it was already dark. She walked out into the driveway to find out what was going on. Four men materialized out of the gloom. At least one of them was armed with a pistol, which he put against her head. He ordered her to keep quiet and re-enter the house.
Sean was sitting down in the living-room when he heard Suzanne cry out, ‘Don’t shoot me. Please don’t shoot me!’ He heard a man’s voice tell her to shut up. Sean moved stealthily towards the living-room door. As he did so, he drew his gun and cocked it, knowing there was already a round in the chamber. He held it behind his back and stood in the doorway looking down the passage. A man rounded the corner, holding a pistol to Suzanne’s head. Two other men followed behind.
At this point I should mention that armed robberies in Kenya usually involve groups of raiders. Criminals frequently beat or murder any house occupants they encounter. If a woman has the misfortune to be in the house, they are likely to gang- rape her. Allow me to stand aside now and let Sean describe what happened next in his own words.
‘I knew I would have to shoot, but I realized I would have to wait until the man with the gun moved it away from Suzanne’s head. So, I just stood there and stared at him. I was aware that he was shouting, but I was concentrating so hard on making him look at me and take the gun away from Suzanne’s head that I could not distinguish the words. After what seemed a very long time, which was probably only seconds, he waved the gun at me. I shot him twice in the stomach. I then quickly fired four more shots towards the two other men behind her. I think I hit one of them in the shoulder. He jumped into the air, then turned and ran out of the living-room with the other man.
‘The man I had shot was lying on the floor, and reached out to grab me. As I turned to deal with him, I heard running footsteps, looked up, saw a muzzle flash and felt a terrific pain in my right ankle joint. I screamed and fell to the floor. Suzanne grabbed my gun from where I dropped it when I was shot and fired the entire magazine at the area where the shots came from. The robbers turned tail and ran, shooting the watchman through the leg as they left [he lived] and killing Suzanne’s dog with another bullet as it tried to defend the house and attack them.
Then, the man I had shot had recovered his weapon from the floor and was trying to point it at us. I rolled over on to him, blood pouring from us both, and fought with him for the gun. As we wrestled for the weapon it went off, and a bullet from his own gun hit him, passing through the palm of my right hand as it did so. He slumped forward, digging his teeth into my left inner forearm, and still fighting me for the gun. Suzanne attacked him with my by-now-empty gun, beating him over the head with the barrel while I tried to pry his teeth from my arm. I took the gun from Suzanne while she ran into her living-room to grab an ornamental sword she had on the wall. She returned with the sword, swinging it at the man on the floor, without any effect on the action of his teeth. I sank my teeth into his ear and managed to pull him off while beating him over the head with my gun butt. Suzanne continued to attack him with the sword and he slumped into a corner. I took the sword from Suzanne and held it tight against his throat. He seemed to lose consciousness.’
Still terrified that the other gunmen would return, Suzanne pressed the alarm bell that would call one of Nairobi’s private rapid-response security firms. Sean tried to make a call on his mobile, but his hands were so soaked with blood that it slipped from his fingers. ‘Suzanne took out her doctor’s trauma bag and put a drip in my arm, devised a splint from rolled newspapers and tried to stem my bleeding with the closest things she could find, which happened to be her daughter’s clothes. I took the belt off the gunman and wrapped it around his leg for a tourniquet, using the gun barrel as a lever to try to put pressure on the artery.’
At this point the rapid-response security men arrived. Armed with clubs and shields, they stood over the prone gunman as Suzanne transferred her attention to Sean’s shattered ankle. Suddenly, the gangster’s mobile rang in his pocket. He regained consciousness and, despite his wounds, attempted to answer it. ‘I screamed at the guards to disable him and grab the telephone, believing it could be his accomplices calling, perhaps to bring reinforcements,’ Sean said. ‘The security guards smacked the man hard with their clubs, picking up the mobile phone as he dropped it, not answering it. The man finally rolled over, dying on the spot. The police arrived, along with an ambulance and doctor.’
Despite his ordeal and the agony he was suffering, Sean behaved with characteristic decency and asked Suzanne not to allow her daughter to see the mess he and the room were in. It turned out that the little girl had slept through the entire struggle. Police later recovered 36 rounds of assorted calibers from the crime scene. The bullets fired by the gangsters at Sean were found in the wall, two inches from where his head had been.
At the hospital, the doctors told Sean that apart from a V-shaped wound in the palm of his hand, together with numerous bites, cuts and bruises, one bullet had blown his ankle-bone into tiny fragments. Sean said it was like ‘a small bag of sand’. He was flown to South Africa, where surgeons fitted a steel pin linking foot to knee, which is the only thing that holds his foot on to his leg. He still walks with a pronounced limp, but appears amazingly upbeat about his progress. He has suffered two or three nightmares, not reliving the scene so much as enduring new configurations of violence.
I asked Sean what went through his head during the ordeal. ‘I remember being very angry,’ he replies. ‘Cool outside, but inside wondering, “How dare these people think they can come and just do what they want to anyone, anywhere?” I’ve lost that anger now, but kept the coldness. I also get a sense of achievement that for once two “normal” people fought back against a rising tide of lawlessness. The main thing is, I am alive. After that everything is a bonus.’
This article first appeared in the print edition of The Spectator magazine, dated August 9, 2003
END There are some interesting general lessons here, but the big thing is how different things might have been with good ammo management. I see I have not said much of help... but maybe some food for thought... Your question is a good one that I think every one who carry needs to resolve in their mind before carrying... V/r Chuck |
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Post by Bob Reed on Nov 18, 2017 15:42:53 GMT -5
Hello,
That's an interesting article, Chuck - thanks for reposting it. And yes, I agree, there probably could have been a bit of better ammo management on her part. But still, I admire and respect her for having the will to fight.
Abninftr, I don't agree with mandated handguns either. A person should always be allowed to carry what they prefer, especially when it comes to handguns (of course in the military the basic rifles would need to be standardized - but personally owned handguns should be allowed in the military without question, simply because of the psychological edge & comfort it gives to the person carrying it).
As for me, I certainly don't plan on shelving my 1911s because of they're lower magazine capacity. But, after decades of having 13-Rds. on tap vs. 7, it has caused me to reflect on the issue quite a bit.
A coupla Sunday's ago, we were already dressed and headed to Church when we heard about the Texas Church - I was carrying a 1911 and my son was carrying a S&W Model 10 and while setting there, we felt fairly confident that if a bad actor or three showed-up, we'd have a good chance of making it through. Or at least, we'd die like dignified men with warm guns...
My go to, SHTF Pistol will always be The Hi-Power though - with 13-Rds. in the gun and an extra 20-Rd. Magazine in the affixed pouch on my thigh rig and two extra 13-Rd. Magazines on my web belt, I feel adequately supplied.
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Post by craig on Nov 30, 2017 9:16:24 GMT -5
  I have a number of 10 round magazine for my 1911, but I like knowing I have more rounds than probably needed with my STEYR GB, & FEG HP. The Steyr GB's capacity is 18+1 - I only need to own its 2 magazines. It is extremely accurate & reliable. I like everything about it - but use it sparingly because there no spare parts available. My Feg/Mauser also holds plenty of ammo, I have a few 15 & 20 round magazines. I consider more ammunition a definite advantage, but all 3 of the above pistols are the same approximate size, which can be a challenge to conceal. |
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Post by rock185 on Dec 7, 2017 22:38:14 GMT -5
Ultimately, I guess my comfort level is 5 rounds or more. While I carried a 1911 or Hi Power for years, both now and back in the day, I sometimes carried a 5 shot revolver.....
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Post by CXM on Dec 8, 2017 10:31:22 GMT -5
Bob, Have you used the Mec-Gar 15rd. HP magazines? I have been using them over 10 years now. I can't tell any difference in the performance of the 15rd. and the 13rd. V/r Chuck Hello, That's an interesting article, Chuck - thanks for reposting it. And yes, I agree, there probably could have been a bit of better ammo management on her part. But still, I admire and respect her for having the will to fight. Abninftr, I don't agree with mandated handguns either. A person should always be allowed to carry what they prefer, especially when it comes to handguns (of course in the military the basic rifles would need to be standardized - but personally owned handguns should be allowed in the military without question, simply because of the psychological edge & comfort it gives to the person carrying it). As for me, I certainly don't plan on shelving my 1911s because of they're lower magazine capacity. But, after decades of having 13-Rds. on tap vs. 7, it has caused me to reflect on the issue quite a bit. A coupla Sunday's ago, we were already dressed and headed to Church when we heard about the Texas Church - I was carrying a 1911 and my son was carrying a S&W Model 10 and while setting there, we felt fairly confident that if a bad actor or three showed-up, we'd have a good chance of making it through. Or at least, we'd die like dignified men with warm guns... My go to, SHTF Pistol will always be The Hi-Power though - with 13-Rds. in the gun and an extra 20-Rd. Magazine in the affixed pouch on my thigh rig and two extra 13-Rd. Magazines on my web belt, I feel adequately supplied. |
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Post by Bob Reed on Dec 8, 2017 16:22:47 GMT -5
Hello, Chuck,
No, I haven't used them. I've always just stuck with the Factory Supplied 13's...
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Post by CXM on Dec 9, 2017 8:49:30 GMT -5
In my mind, the 15rd Mec-Gar mags end any argument about the Glock 19 being superior to the HP. In fact, given the HP ergonomics, reliability and safety I would suggest the HP is a better gun than the Glock... FWIW Chuck Hello, Chuck, No, I haven't used them. I've always just stuck with the Factory Supplied 13's... |
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Post by Bob Reed on Dec 10, 2017 11:24:27 GMT -5
I agree, Chuck,
In fact, The Browning Hi-Power is Light Years Ahead of any pistol this world will ever know - it's just how history was intended to be written.
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Post by Mister Coffee on Dec 24, 2017 14:49:09 GMT -5
The following is strictly academic, since I do not carry, nor do I have a permit to carry.
I've gone back and forth in my mind trying to figure out an answer to Bob's question of ammo capacity and comfort level.
Thought 1: I live in California, so the mandated maximum capacity is 10-rds. In addition, I do not live in a high threat environment, and I do not anticipate that I would be doing much with a carry weapon except lugging it around and trying not to look stupid. The exception to this is the earthquake scenario. For years, I have tried to think this one through: What would I need in the event of a catastrophic earthquake? Probably, a full-on backpack of stuff, and a gun and plenty of rounds for personal protection. Barring earthquakes, I really don't need much on a daily basis. Also, using a gun in any scenario would almost certainly lead to multiple devastating lawsuits (Did I mention that I live in California?), and that has to be a consideration for me.
Thought 2: I have never been in a gunfight, but in all the other high-stress situations that I've been in, my hands didn't start shaking until after. Sometimes, three days after. That doesn't mean that, if tomorrow some ill-behaved youngsters tried to take my lunch money I wouldn't start crying for my mommie, but for now I do not anticipate that I will be unable to reload an automatic that is familiar to me. So, carrying extra mags would be one response (for me) to the capacity issue.
Thought 3: I suppose if I really thought I was entering into, or living in, a high threat environment in California, I would carry 10-rds., extra mags and multiple guns. Every day. Might sound ridiculous and "over the top," but that's all I can come up with for now.
Thought 4: Until I get a better answer for Bob's question, I'm going to train harder and longer and as much as I can. And, for me, training includes live-fire practice at the range, dry fire at home, but also improved situational awareness. I've really got to stop being this oblivious old guy and start paying more attention to my surroundings.
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Post by sistema1927 on Jan 5, 2018 11:15:25 GMT -5
Lately I have been carrying a 3" Kimber K6S .357 Magnum revolver IWB. Six in the gun, a speed strip with another six in the jeans watch pocket, and a 2x2x2 on the belt. All 18 of these rounds are 125 Hornady Critical Defense .357's.
Of course, as I stated in an earlier post, I avoid the "Four Stupids" and live a fairly uneventful life. Lately it has involved a lot of doctor and lab visits following my wife's (very successful) kidney transplant.
Next week we will be visiting Tucson for a couple of days, and I will also put a 442 in my pocket for a "New York Reload". We are only allowed to carry one concealed weapon here in NM.
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Post by Mister Coffee on Jan 6, 2018 14:12:54 GMT -5
sistema1927: Happy to hear that the wife is doing well. Tucson should be lovely at this time of year. Going with a revolver, eh? At some point, you should let us know how you like the K6S if you have not posted about it already.
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Post by donp326 on Jan 8, 2018 20:23:33 GMT -5
If I carry my sig P220 it's single stack so I carry it with two extra magazines. The CZ75 pre b has a 16 round mag so a carry one extra mag in my pocket. With the HP, I use the 15 round magazines again with one extra mag in my pocket. When I carry my PP Super its also single stack I carry two extra magazines with it.
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Post by ranger566 on Jan 10, 2018 11:31:18 GMT -5
I live in a small country town of 900, with no stop light. Things pretty quiet around here, so carrying my Colt New Agent with 7+1, or my SIG P938 with 6+1, work for me.
Occasionally we'll head east to Northern Virginia (greater DC area) to visit relatives and my HP or CZ75B with their high cap mags feel comfortable on my hip.
YMMV. |
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Still, I could find no answer to the question of how much ammo was enough.
