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Post by warthogge on May 21, 2017 22:19:01 GMT -5
OK.... once again there are rumors circulating that FN will quit making the Hi Power for Browning to import. I don't want to dwell on that potential, again, but would like to move it into another direction; could discontinuation of the Hi Power by FN be a positive thing?
As discussed ad nauseam over the last several years, many of us are disappointed that there are few options to obtain Hi Power variants except via customization - an expensive and time consuming option. So, if no new ones were being sold, would a company or companies take up the challenge and start making Hi Powers with more features we want and possibly at a lower price? Imagine Ed Brown, Remington, Wilson Combat, Les Baer, etc. getting into that market. Not a new concept or discussion, but one I would like to pose and converse on. Personally, I believe someone would step up to the plate and start making the frames and slides to fill the gap left by FN. FAMCO tried years ago, but I think they were too expensive and there were too many used imports from Israel and other countries coming into the US to make them successful. What say you?
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Post by sistema1927 on May 22, 2017 11:08:49 GMT -5
First, I think that it might be more than just a rumor this time. I think that the last FN produced HP is probably already in the sales pipeline.
I doubt that anyone domestic will pick up the baton. There are still plenty of surplus units around, and the market won't justify the start up costs. I fully expect that somebody will start importing the Tisas versions, but only if they can find a price point where they can make some money.
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Post by CXM on May 22, 2017 11:12:19 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure the High Power has recently been discontinued... I bought a 2016 production a few months ago which may be the last year... sort of interesting... I have a first year of production and a last year...
But back to the issue, the only likely supplier looks to be the Turkish made guns that look pretty good. I suppose they would make guns for anyone who wanted to import them in quantity.
My best guess anyway.
V/r
Chuck
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Post by Carolinaman on May 22, 2017 11:25:29 GMT -5
Yes sir, I would tend to agree with you. I have posted the www.browningusa. com websites current posting of firearms. I suspect that any remaining inventory will be sold to CNN sports or some other company to sell off. However, I don't think that the patent or design will leave us anytime soon. I'm pretty sure the High Power has recently been discontinued... I bought a 2016 production a few months ago which may be the last year... sort of interesting... I have a first year of production and a last year... But back to the issue, the only likely supplier looks to be the Turkish made guns that look pretty good. I suppose they would make guns for anyone who wanted to import them in quantity. My best guess anyway. V/r Chuck Perhaps another overseas manufacturer like Armscor or Tisas will pick up the design and start their own manufacturing. It's a great design and great pistol! Chris |
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Post by HRFunk on May 22, 2017 11:45:05 GMT -5
I've been pondering this same question. At the risk of sounding pessimistic, I suspect if the Hi Power had a strong, profitable, market, FN/Browning wouldn't be discontinuing it. I'm a relative new-comer to the Hi Power Fan club, and while I think Hi Power fans are a loyal group, I also think we are a minority in the firearms community. I'm not sure a domestic manufacturer could produce a Hi Power at a price-point that would allow it to be competitive in the overall handgun market (remember, many, many, handgun buyers see Glock as the benchmark at a cost of +/- $500). I suppose a foreign concern might give it a try, but that might have it's own set of issues (import tariffs, parts availability/interchangeability, quality of materials/manufacturing, etc).
All that being said, I would love to see Remington issue a Hi Power built to the quality standard of their 1911R1. They have managed to build a good quality pistol while keeping the price at a reasonable level. So we can always hope!
HRF
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Post by CXM on May 22, 2017 11:56:41 GMT -5
Makes sense to me... I have been told FN only continued to make the HP to support military and police agencies that had bought HPs in quantity and needed replacement guns and parts. I'm confident FN hopes to sell HP users their new plastic guns. With the gun being produced for that market, it made sense to offer them at retail. Another factor I have heard is the flood of surplus guns from the mid east has pretty much killed the market for new HPs. The HP has never been a cheap gun... even in the 1960s, it was the second most expensive 9x19mm on the market only the SIG P210 being more expensive... as a result they never had the wide distribution of some other guns. Add to that the fact young shooters mostly like plastic guns... you have a really weak market for the HP. FWIW Chuck I've been pondering this same question. At the risk of sounding pessimistic, I suspect if the Hi Power had a strong, profitable, market, FN/Browning wouldn't be discontinuing it. I'm a relative new-comer to the Hi Power Fan club, and while I think Hi Power fans are a loyal group, I also think we are a minority in the firearms community. I'm not sure a domestic manufacturer could produce a Hi Power at a price-point that would allow it to be competitive in the overall handgun market (remember, many, many, handgun buyers see Glock as the benchmark at a cost of +/- $500). I suppose a foreign concern might give it a try, but that might have it's own set of issues (import tariffs, parts availability/interchangeability, quality of materials/manufacturing, etc). All that being said, I would love to see Remington issue a Hi Power built to the quality standard of their 1911R1. They have managed to build a good quality pistol while keeping the price at a reasonable level. So we can always hope! HRF |
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Post by Slav on May 22, 2017 12:03:23 GMT -5
Back in February when we were in Belgium, Leon Hubert at R.D.I.H told us that FN tried to abandon the HiPower many times in the past. Each time they did, a new order were placed and they needed to fulfill it.
Lately we had an idea to fund a small series of compact HiPowers produces by Arcus with "bit" different features : SFS preinstalled, ambi-mag release, Masters grips, battle sight / night sight, hard chrome and black chrome variants, BHSS springs. The result would have been something like my avatar picture.
We asked for an offer and we received - NICHTS!
As for the Turkish made guns... I would never touch something like that, but this is only me and it is strictly subjective...
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Post by gt40doc on May 22, 2017 13:46:47 GMT -5
I have only seen photos of the Turkish HP from another forum. I don't think that any of our forum members have actually seen/held this handgun. In the photos, it looks quite interesting, but photos can make a Hi Point look decent.....well, maybe I went too far with that statement!!
I question how many of the younger generation have any interest in the BHP, especially at the current pricepoint. They like the tupperware models, and I would have NO interest in a plastic HP, regardless of it's price.....that would just be blasphemy!!
I guess we just wait and see what happens to the HPs. I have the ones that I want, currently, but if one wanted another one/few, then I wouldn't wait too long in acquiring them.
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Post by HRFunk on May 22, 2017 15:03:38 GMT -5
All good things......
HRF
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Post by CXM on May 22, 2017 15:31:01 GMT -5
I have not handled the Turkish HP... but I have one of the Turkish 1911A1s... and it is very good indeed... goes bang first time every time... I would say it is fully equal to the Armscor made Rock Island guns. If they make the HP copy to that level of quality it too will be a really excellent gun... If I could find one to buy somehow I would surely do so... if just to get a look at it... I got an email to an inquiry to the importer of other Turkish made pistols and they said they were reviewing the gun... maybe the news Browning will stop importing them will impel them to bring in some HPs... Time Will tell I suppose... V/r Chuck I have only seen photos of the Turkish HP from another forum. I don't think that any of our forum members have actually seen/held this handgun. In the photos, it looks quite interesting, but photos can make a Hi Point look decent.....well, maybe I went too far with that statement!! I question how many of the younger generation have any interest in the BHP, especially at the current pricepoint. They like the tupperware models, and I would have NO interest in a plastic HP, regardless of it's price.....that would just be blasphemy!! I guess we just wait and see what happens to the HPs. I have the ones that I want, currently, but if one wanted another one/few, then I wouldn't wait too long in acquiring them. |
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Post by submoa on May 22, 2017 16:10:56 GMT -5
With this years "revelations" that the BHP is kaput...the result of conversations with Browning Arms reps at NRA, I've suggested we've suffered similar "revelations" each year around the SHOT and NRA conventions for years...and years. Advice emanating from Browning Arms...whether taken from the Browning Arms website or even on the phone direct, has been...uhmmm, ahhhh, "spotty" at best...consequently it's been pretty easily ignored for years...and years.
As proof of the imminent demise of the BHP, some have alleged the BHP is listed as "Discontinued" on the Browning Arms website. Actually, there ARE several BHP Models listed as "Discontinued" on that website...including a MkIII and a Standard as alleged, BUT the discontinued MkIII and Standard are in .40 S&W...and they were discontinued years ago.
Others have pointed out the MkIII and Standard are listed BOTH as "Discontinued" AND "Current" on the same website. See above...AND both the MkIII and Standard listed as "Current" on the website are 9mmP. Sooooo, no change there for many years...BUT, we're talking the Browning Arms website and Browning Arms is Herstal Group's US import entity...Browning Arms is not the manufacturer.
Last I checked the Herstal Group umbrella website...a few months ago, the MkIII was listed on the FN Herstal website under Defense & Security, the MkIII...and others, were listed on both the Browning International and Browning Viana (formerly FN Viana) websites. The FN America LLC website didn't...and hasn't, listed a BHP for near 15 years.
Well, as of just a few days ago, the BHP...in any form, is no longer listed anywhere on any of those Herstal Group websites listed above...EXCEPT the Browning Arms (Morgan. UT/Arnold, MO) website as described above :-(.
Is that absolutely definitive? No, not necessarily, I'd bet that if FN were to receive a contract order for 5,000 MkIII BHPs for the Emir of Itchcrotchistan, they'd be back in production again ;-). Other than that? Honestly, even I'M getting "nervous" that what's currently in the pipeline just might be all that's left of the brand new, factory fresh BHPs :-(.....
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Post by CXM on May 23, 2017 7:17:16 GMT -5
I hope submoa is right... this certainly isn't the first the demise of the HP has been announced.
FWIW
Chuck
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Post by jaypee on May 23, 2017 9:04:09 GMT -5
The cloud of commercial failure in the USA has been hanging over the BHP for a number of years and impending doom has been predicted for about as long. I honestly don't know how FN is still building them in light of the great flood of credible polymer pistols and first rate steel guns like the CZ 75 that sell for not much more than half of a new BHP. And the Turkish clones of the CZ 75 are selling for under $400. as are the EAA CZ 75 clones - also first rate pistols - which further adds to the pressure on the BHP. A few years ago I had a conversation with the late Stephen A. Camp in which he said he wished someone would come up with a good, affordable BHP clone, because that would introduce more people to the design and eventually make the BHP a more popular proposition. I agree. I think we lost a lot when the FEG and FM clones dried up and, in keeping with Mr. Camp's thoughts, I'm really hoping that Tisas will get their Hi Power pistol into the US pipeline very soon. This may get me "thowed out" of the purist club, but I firmly believe the Turkish firearms industry could build and sell a BHP clone that is every bit as well finished as the BHP for a lot less money, and I'm hoping they will.
JayPee
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Post by CXM on May 23, 2017 9:16:26 GMT -5
This certainly makes sense to me... The Turkish 1911s can often be had for around $350... if they can market a good HP for around $400 I think it will be a success in the market place... I don't think it will be a threat to S&W or Glock, but I think it will be successful. FWIW Chuck The cloud of commercial failure in the USA has been hanging over the BHP for a number of years and impending doom has been predicted for about as long. I honestly don't know how FN is still building them in light of the great flood of credible polymer pistols and first rate steel guns like the CZ 75 that sell for not much more than half of a new BHP. And the Turkish clones of the CZ 75 are selling for under $400. as are the EAA CZ 75 clones - also first rate pistols - which further adds to the pressure on the BHP. A few years ago I had a conversation with the late Stephen A. Camp in which he said he wished someone would come up with a good, affordable BHP clone, because that would introduce more people to the design and eventually make the BHP a more popular proposition. I agree. I think we lost a lot when the FEG and FM clones dried up and, in keeping with Mr. Camp's thoughts, I'm really hoping that Tisas will get their Hi Power pistol into the US pipeline very soon. This may get me "thowed out" of the purist club, but I firmly believe the Turkish firearms industry could build and sell a BHP clone that is every bit as well finished as the BHP for a lot less money, and I'm hoping they will. JayPee |
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Post by warthogge on May 23, 2017 21:53:11 GMT -5
Does anyone remember how much the FAMCO frames and slides were selling for?
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