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Post by sirfrancis on Dec 19, 2023 21:49:18 GMT -5
Hey guys, Well silly me...I made an impulse buy in the heat the moment. I didn't know the first thing about these handguns. Now looking at some online pics and the serial details I'm worried it's a bitsa. Right side: So there is a serial number on the right side frame above trigger guard - its 74251 On same side in front of ejection port - is 1005-13-010-0795 The ejection port has no serial The slide has no serial under the ejection port Left side: FABRIQUE NATIONALE D'ARMES DE GUERRE HERSTAL-BELGIQUE PISTOL SELF-LOADING BROWNING'S PATENT DEPOSE 9MM L9 A1 F1 1965 I only have these photos as I'm waiting for the Police clearance before I can pick it up. Edit: also there does not appear to be a lanyard hole. cheers and thanks |
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Post by tnorris on Dec 20, 2023 0:28:00 GMT -5
Hey guys, Well silly me...I made an impulse buy in the heat the moment. I didn't know the first thing about these handguns. Now looking at some online pics and the serial details I'm worried it's a bitsa. Right side: So there is a serial number on the right side frame above trigger guard - its 74251 (serial number)On same side in front of ejection port - is 1005-13-010-0795 (inventory control)The ejection port has no serial The slide has no serial under the ejection port Left side: FABRIQUE NATIONALE D'ARMES DE GUERRE HERSTAL-BELGIQUE PISTOL SELF-LOADING BROWNING'S PATENT DEPOSE 9MM L9 A1
F1 1965
It will be fun to see more complete pictures.
The mark *S is a Controller of Proof mark This one was used only by Daenen Charles from 1952-1968 and again from 1974-1980. By the other proof marks on the barrel and the line L9 A1 F1 1965, it seems plausible it was produced in 1965 or put into service in 1965. Without looking at reference books right now, I seem to recall the L9 designation being British.
If the pistol has an external extractor it was made between 1962 and 1968. If it has an internal extractor it would have been made from 1952-1962.
Serial numbers are not always reliable for dating High Powers from this era. There may be date codes in several places to help narrow it down.
The string of numbers on the slide are probably inventory numbers for whatever agency put the pistol into service.
A couple other guys will be along shortly to fill in some things. Looking forward to more pictures!
Cheers, Tim
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Post by sirfrancis on Dec 20, 2023 2:26:03 GMT -5
Hey guys, Well silly me...I made an impulse buy in the heat the moment. I didn't know the first thing about these handguns. Now looking at some online pics and the serial details I'm worried it's a bitsa. Right side: So there is a serial number on the right side frame above trigger guard - its 74251 (serial number)On same side in front of ejection port - is 1005-13-010-0795 (inventory control)The ejection port has no serial The slide has no serial under the ejection port Left side: FABRIQUE NATIONALE D'ARMES DE GUERRE HERSTAL-BELGIQUE PISTOL SELF-LOADING BROWNING'S PATENT DEPOSE 9MM L9 A1
F1 1965
It will be fun to see more complete pictures.
The mark *S is a Controller of Proof mark This one was used only by Daenen Charles from 1952-1968 and again from 1974-1980. By the other proof marks on the barrel and the line L9 A1 F1 1965, it seems plausible it was produced in 1965 or put into service in 1965. Without looking at reference books right now, I seem to recall the L9 designation being British.
If the pistol has an external extractor it was made between 1962 and 1968. If it has an internal extractor it would have been made from 1952-1962.
Serial numbers are not always reliable for dating High Powers from this era. There may be date codes in several places to help narrow it down.
The string of numbers on the slide are probably inventory numbers for whatever agency put the pistol into service.
A couple other guys will be along shortly to fill in some things. Looking forward to more pictures!
Cheers, Tim
Hi Tim, Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately only other photo is this of whole gun right side. Yes external extractor. This doesn't have a lanyard, I read somewhere that not all L9A1s have them but not sure if that comment is correct. It's possible these aren't original grips and the lanyard hole is hidden beneath....dunno. It falls into T series time frame but does not have T in the serial number, nor 6 digits like I've seen mentioned. Like you said if there was no consistency then.... who knows... cheers Francis Attachments:
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Post by ToddSig on Dec 20, 2023 8:38:47 GMT -5
Welcome to HPC sirfrancis . As Tim notes, more images would be most helpful, but what a great find, and from what I see and found, it does not appear to be a "bitsa". Blake Stevens book The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol has a decent section on the British L9A1 pistols. Your pistol roll marks are included in the section, but it was not meant for the UK market, but for Australia. Are you in the UK or in Australia? According to Stevens, the typical British L9A1 marks have "Pistol Automictic" on the slide, while the Australian High Powers have your mark "Pistol Self Loading". See image below of page 208 of Stevens. What is interesting is that Nepal also ordered the L9A1 which included both the UK and Australian versions of the slide marks. But that contract was from 1966. With that, your date fits with the Australian contract. When you get additional images, please post.  |
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Post by ToddSig on Dec 20, 2023 10:10:37 GMT -5
A little more info, the "1005-13-010-0795" is part NATO identification and part contract serial number.
The 1005 is for Nato ordnance material up to 30 mm
The 13 is the manufacturers country code for Belgium
The rest of the numbers are part of the contract serial number, which may be different than the FN serial number.
BTW, another resource book, Vanderlinden's FN Browning Pistols, does not seem to differentiate the slide mark of "Pistol Automatic" and "Self Loading" pistol. Given the way FN operated, I would suspect the marking specifications were not always followed. So it may be part of the UK contract as Vanderlinden pictures one identified as British, but has the "Self Loading" slide mark.
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Post by sirfrancis on Dec 20, 2023 15:38:34 GMT -5
Hi, well that's more promising! Thanks.
Yes I'm Australian, I bought it here locally.
When I get my hands on it, which could be several weeks waiting for the PTA to clear, I'll be able to post more photos.
I'm keen to find out if it still has an original magazine. The seller told me all 3 mags are the 10 shot cap as per Australian target license laws. So not sure whether the original 13 round mag has been modified with a 10 round 'stopper' and whether it can be restored. I have a collector license so am able to keep 13 round mag.
Thanks again
Francis
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Post by sirfrancis on Dec 20, 2023 15:59:42 GMT -5
Welcome to HPC sirfrancis . As Tim notes, more images would be most helpful, but what a great find, and from what I see and found, it does not appear to be a "bitsa". Blake Stevens book The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol has a decent section on the British L9A1 pistols. Your pistol roll marks are included in the section, but it was not meant for the UK market, but for Australia. Are you in the UK or in Australia? According to Stevens, the typical British L9A1 marks have "Pistol Automictic" on the slide, while the Australian High Powers have your mark "Pistol Self Loading". See image below of page 208 of Stevens. What is interesting is that Nepal also ordered the L9A1 which included both the UK and Australian versions of the slide marks. But that contract was from 1966. With that, your date fits with the Australian contract. When you get additional images, please post. So the left side of slide exactly matches the schematic for an Australian L9A1. However, I noticed on this schematic it indicates the serial number (numero de l'arme) should be a T number below the ejection port. This is what I noticed missing on mine. Mine is only on the frame further down. Also no 'T' on mine just the 5 numbers which again on other examples I've seen are 6 numbers. Also some sources point to the serial being on the barrel visible through the ejector, which mine doesn't have. Plus no lanyard hole that I can see....but not sure if that is required or not. |
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Post by ToddSig on Dec 20, 2023 16:38:46 GMT -5
I would not be overly concerned, as FN was known for using older parts and marks as they went through transition periods and into new models and contracts. For example, in the schematic I posted, you will note the slide has the thumb print depression. This was typically removed right before the external extractor was introduced. Most of these transitional slides have no thumb print depression, and yet have the internal extractor. Schematic posted has the reverse, extremal extractor and thumb print depression. When you do get the L9A1 in hand, you can check various parts for production date marks. But always keep in mind with FN HP production, there are exceptions to the rule! Here is one, dated 1963, has the self loading pistol mark on the slide, but has British Broad arrow. Although it is a T series, the barrel does not have a serial number on it. As mentioned, FN did not always follow the terms of the contract. And it appears that Stevens (with schematic image) may not be correct regarding which slide were used and where they were sent. pre98.com/shop/mon-may-18-british-military-issue-1963-l9a1-fn-high-power-pistol-not-import-marked-impossible-to-find-this-pistol/Todd |
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Post by tnorris on Dec 20, 2023 17:18:27 GMT -5
... I noticed on this schematic it indicates the serial number (numero de l'arme) should be a T number below the ejection port. This is what I noticed missing on mine. Mine is only on the frame further down. Also no 'T' on mine just the 5 numbers which again on other examples I've seen are 6 numbers.
Before the "T", which was the new product code for High Power, there was no "T". Before six digits in the serial number, there were only five digits.
Looks like your pistol pre-dates the "T Series" as well as six digit serial number strings.
Cheers, Tim
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Post by sirfrancis on Dec 21, 2023 4:51:46 GMT -5
Just been scouring the web for 1960s Australian L9A1s. What I've noticed is they all seem to have the black plastic grips, unlike mine and from the ones I've seen so far, lanyard ring.
It almost looks like mine is a regular commercial pre 1962 frame / grips with a post 1962 L9A1 slide.
Would that be possible?
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Post by ToddSig on Dec 21, 2023 10:56:15 GMT -5
Francis, I think you might be correct on the L9A1 slide being placed on an early frame. In looking further at your image of the left side of the frame and slide, on the frame, under the production date of the slide, there is no NATO numbering. From all of the images of L9A1 High Powers I have seen the frame should have the NATO numbering sequence on the left side dust cover. The serial number (74251) if not a contract requested number would date the frame +/-1955-1957 (but we dont know if it is a standard FN serial sequence or a contract serial number). The grips, could have been changed out, and the lanyard post could have been removed (the L9A! was supposed to have the lanyard loop). Or, it gives more credibility to a mixed/matched slide and frame. Can you get the seller to send you additional images. Once you have the HP in hand, you can check the frame and frame parts for production marks, on barrel, trigger, hammer, frame, slide stop, firing pin plate etc. That would give a better clue on when the frame/parts were manufactured. From what I gather, the British reached out to FN in 1964, and the L9A1 production started in 1965 (hence most with T prefix). Given it was a contract with specific requirements and markings, the date range for the major components should be close to the start of the contract.  |
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Post by sirfrancis on Dec 21, 2023 22:23:28 GMT -5
Hi Todd,
Yep the more I search the more those discrepancies pop up. I was hoping it was perhaps one of those FN exceptions regarding serials etc. But just too many things are jumping up now....serials, grips, lanyard. I reckon the bloke knew what it was hence the low price. He played dumb said he didn't know anything about the gun. He said there were 5 other buyers lined up so I felt pressured to act or miss out.
So I'll need to check it over completely to see just how many bits have been swapped out.
Anyway I've called a few dealers and it still has some value as an 'affordable' period Hi Power. ie someone who wants one for the collection but can't afford the real deal. I paid AU$850 (US$570). The real deal would go for 3 times that. That one on the link you had went for US$2400!!!!! Dealers have told me I shouldn't lose too much at worst or maybe break even. So I might keep it for a while to fill my collection.
If it sounds too good to be true.....beware!.. haha
Francis
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Post by ToddSig on Dec 22, 2023 14:45:51 GMT -5
Hi Todd, Yep the more I search the more those discrepancies pop up. I was hoping it was perhaps one of those FN exceptions regarding serials etc. But just too many things are jumping up now....serials, grips, lanyard. I reckon the bloke knew what it was hence the low price. He played dumb said he didn't know anything about the gun. He said there were 5 other buyers lined up so I felt pressured to act or miss out. So I'll need to check it over completely to see just how many bits have been swapped out. Anyway I've called a few dealers and it still has some value as an 'affordable' period Hi Power. ie someone who wants one for the collection but can't afford the real deal. I paid AU$850 (US$570). The real deal would go for 3 times that. That one on the link you had went for US$2400!!!!! Dealers have told me I shouldn't lose too much at worst or maybe break even. So I might keep it for a while to fill my collection. If it sounds too good to be true.....beware!.. haha Francis Francis, price is not bad as condition of the major components looks good, and the finishes do match up. So price is not bad. And, to even have just the L9A1 slide, that is pretty cool on its own. Keep us posted when you get it. |
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Post by sirfrancis on Dec 22, 2023 15:15:48 GMT -5
Just wondering.... would an external extractor slide (L9A1) work properly on what would have been a 1955-7 frame with an internal extractor? Can you just swap slides without any further modifications to the gun? I did ask the guy if it functions properly, he said yes....but I've kinda lost faith in his veracity.
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Post by ToddSig on Dec 22, 2023 17:14:22 GMT -5
Just wondering.... would an external extractor slide (L9A1) work properly on what would have been a 1955-7 frame with an internal extractor? Can you just swap slides without any further modifications to the gun? I did ask the guy if it functions properly, he said yes....but I've kinda lost faith in his veracity You should be OK. The newer slide should work with the earlier frame. |
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