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Post by itselpo on Nov 24, 2022 0:29:01 GMT -5
I recently stumbled upon a Browning HP at auction and swung on it. Unfortunately, my overzealousness got the better of me and I didn't really research the history of the firearm before I bought it. The question I have is the origin of the firearm. It's serial number is C42365. Can anyone give me some insight on where this pistol may have come from? Here's my Drive link to view the photos. drive.google.com/drive/folders/158o4scxiaXDQ2mf9KoKC2QSCYAYVrf7_?usp=sharing |
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Post by ToddSig on Nov 24, 2022 9:59:58 GMT -5
Hard to tell much detail from the images, so cant see inspector or proof marks clearly, which would help. I have never seen a singular C as a serial number. There is the C series Hi Powers, but the C is preceded by the two digit date, ie 72C for a 1972 Hi Power. FN allowed contract clients to order with requested serial numbers. Perhaps this is one of those. But, more than likely the C was added during an arsenal issuance or rebuild.
From what I can see, the High Power appears to be from the model/version from 1965, with characteristics to include the ring hammer, small safety, external extractor, flat muzzle bushing and small front sight. Probably surplus military or LE. The rear sight looks like a replacement. The flat bushing on High Powers was altered by FN with what is called the hog nosed bushing in 1971/72. The serial numbers were moved from the right side of the frame to the front grip strap around 1971. Now during the transition of these changes, no date is specific to each part/element and there are many outliers. But, all things being considered and equal, I would date the High Power pre +/-1971 or so. But, if it was arsenal rebuilt, hard to say. Better images of inspector and proof marks would help.
Perhaps others will join in regarding the singular C prefix in the serial number.
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Post by CXM on Nov 24, 2022 16:52:13 GMT -5
As already pointed out, the photos are very hard to see... but I can offer the following.
First, you could have a FeG (Hungarial HP copy) frame fitted with a FN slide. THe gun could well be one of the thousands and thousands of Israeli military/police surplus guns imported in the last 20 years... A mixed slide/frame would not be at all unusual on one of the surplus guns (which not only include the many variations of the HP Israel acquired over the years. Israeli armors took parts from un-serviceable HPs including the many they captured in the various mid east wars and used the parts to make serviceable guns from the ruined ones.
FEG also made fake HPs, probably for Israel (or maybe arab countries) and applied fake FN roll stamps on the slide... the give away on these guns is the FEG serial numbers, with the Alpha at the start of the S/N not after the serial number.
Some better photos would be a big help.
FWIW
Chuck
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Post by itselpo on Nov 24, 2022 17:00:50 GMT -5
Thank you for your input! I’m working on getting more photos from the auction curator but the holidays will definitely slow down the progress.
When they arrive I’ll be sure to post them up to see your opinions.
In my research I did discover that this gun may be a counterfeit which takes some wind out of my sails but doesn’t completely ruin my excitement for it.
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Post by ToddSig on Nov 24, 2022 18:54:18 GMT -5
One of my first thoughts was counterfeit, but the C in the serial number does not match known FEG counterfeit High Power clones, nor any of the FEG High Power clone known serial number letter prefixes. Our site has a lot of FEG content, with serial number and manufacture date tables, and I could not find a C prefix. FEG used B, F, G, L, V along with a few others, but no "C". Although the C could have been added.
Looking forward to seeing more marks when you get the High Power.
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Post by itselpo on Nov 29, 2022 16:00:28 GMT -5
I managed to get a few more photos uploaded to the Drive link above. Hopefully they can shed some more light on this HP.
Thanks!
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Post by ToddSig on Nov 29, 2022 17:03:56 GMT -5
I managed to get a few more photos uploaded to the Drive link above. Hopefully they can shed some more light on this HP. Thanks! itselpo, thanks for posting the additional images. I did some searching on our sight and came up with another member post, from Jan 2022 who also had a C prefix. It was noted as an FEG counterfeit Hi Power by Laszlo/Bezcl from Hungary, but he also mentions there is no C prefix serial number in the FEG archives he has studied. Link to the thread is highpowercollectors.proboards.com/thread/1013/feg-factory-references-informations?page=6Scroll down a few post to Jan 3 post by Tray, There is a link showing his serial number and a few additional posts. Laszlo/bezcl mentions it might be a custom counterfeit (I am assuming he means a custom FEG counterfeit). So no definitive answers, but some interesting comments and certainly an interesting Hi Power you have. Your High Power has a flat muzzle bushing, while most FEG Hi Powers were based on the FN model type 71/73 High Power which starting around 1973 had the "hog nosed" bushing. Later when the MKIII was introduced, FN went back to the flatter busing. Also, count your slide serrations, do you have 22 1/2 or 23? See the above thread for more info on slide serration count and a thread by PJK 9HP who posted on the serration count of various Hi Powers. I am going to post to Laszlo/bezcl's thread which he monitors, and ask him to take a look. Keep an eye on the recent posts, and hopefully he can post additional comments. |
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Post by beczl on Nov 30, 2022 1:11:45 GMT -5
I already have more information such type of FÉG/Custom made counterfeits with C or CC prefixes from reliable sources (Conflict Armament Research Inc). All the similar pistols were found/documented solely in North-East Syria.
- As far as I can see the pistol frame, hammer, and trigger have different shapes, and I'm 100% it was not made by the FÉG. So I guess the whole frame with internal is not made by FÉG
- The slide (with 22 + 1/2 serration) and the barrel are both made by FÉG.
- The slide roll mark is a bit off and does not similar to any of the know 'fake' roll mark positions.
- FÉG makes the barrel caliber mark, but the serial number both on the barrel and slide is not made by them. FÉG never uses such type of punch letters like '5', '6' on their HP's. Also, letters seem punched to the frame by hand which was not common in FÉG as they had semi-auto punch machines.
Beside C and CC prefix, several L prefix FÉG counterfeits also found in Syria. Its characteristics:
- Their serial between L 12667 - L 13068
- All pistols are definitely made by the FÉG.
- Most serial is outside of the documented serials which were sent to Iraq. As per the 'L' serial distribution per year, those pistols had been made Jan-Feb 1986. But this was much before June 1986 date, when Tariq Aziz get his first contract for those pistols with Hungary. In the archive no records of any other contracts (and we have no gaps or missing pistols based on the FÉG total production capacity/numbers). The 1st version is to it might be it was made from spare parts at a later time, or 2nd it was made to Iraq as an additional (2nd) contract, but those contract/export details could totally missing from archives.
The 2nd option is less likely as FÉG has capped pistol manufacturing capacity which was maxed 20.000 pistols/year at this time. In 1986 a total of 19.092 P9 pistols and their clones had been made by the FÉG. So they can not able to produce more pistols for a bigger order.
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Post by itselpo on Nov 30, 2022 2:46:43 GMT -5
So if I understand it right, the pistol slide and barrel are of FEG origin, but the frame is not? How peculiar! Does that mean that they may have sent “blank” firearms to countries who serialized them on their own if FEG never serialized firearms manually? It’s definitely a curious item I’m excited I stumbled upon. The aura of mystery definitely gets me more exited to get my hands on it.
I kinda get the vibe this gun is more special that I originally thought, be it a counterfeit or not.
I appreciate the immense knowledge everyone has shared with me on this subject. I’ve always been a big HP fan but this rabbit hole has turned it up a few notches.
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Post by ToddSig on Nov 30, 2022 9:02:50 GMT -5
itselpo, I have to agree you, you have an interesting counterfeit High Power. Given the rare FEG serial number, the Syrian connection, and possible custom frame. All very interesting and unique to the FEG and High Power collector community.
Laszlo, thanks for all of the great information and background on the FEG C and CC prefix pistols.
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file
Member
Posts: 9
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Post by file on Nov 30, 2022 13:31:26 GMT -5
I recently stumbled upon a Browning HP at auction and swung on it. Unfortunately, my overzealousness got the better of me and I didn't really research the history of the firearm before I bought it. -LOL- I did the same today, bought a hi power that has serial number starting with B. After some research, I believe it's FEG... My happiness level dropped by few points  |
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Post by itselpo on Nov 30, 2022 14:59:15 GMT -5
I recently stumbled upon a Browning HP at auction and swung on it. Unfortunately, my overzealousness got the better of me and I didn't really research the history of the firearm before I bought it. -LOL- I did the same today, bought a hi power that has serial number starting with B. After some research, I believe it's FEG... My happiness level dropped by few points They’re unique in their own right, but who said you had to stop at just one HP? Lol. |
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file
Member
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Post by file on Dec 1, 2022 7:59:17 GMT -5
Yeah, FEG and importers were doing some dodgy stuff. This gun was bought during Croatian homeland war in a gun store in 1992 or 93, and it's registered as browning hi power in all of the documents. Guy, a retired cop, I bought it from swears it was sold to him as a real FN, and I believe him.   Pics![]() |
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Post by CXM on Dec 1, 2022 9:12:04 GMT -5
It is possible the gun was accepted as a genuine HP. The "Fakes" were not known until a few years ago when guns captured by the Israelis in various wars started being sold as surplus here in the U.S. FWIW Chuck Yeah, FEG and importers were doing some dodgy stuff. This gun was bought during Croatian homeland war in a gun store in 1992 or 93, and it's registered as browning hi power in all of the documents. Guy, a retired cop, I bought it from swears it was sold to him as a real FN, and I believe him. Pics![]() |
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Post by itselpo on Dec 10, 2022 2:21:27 GMT -5
Gentlemen, I’ve got the Hi-power in my possession and added more photos!
Let me know your thoughts on it. Quality piece or was I swindled pretty good?
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