Do you have a favorite surplus revolver?

[Carolinaman]

Hello,

I didn't want to drift my own thread on "Surplus Pistols" and decided to start another on C&R revolvers.  At present, I only have one true surplus revolver.  It is the venerable 1895 Nagant revolver.



It is basically "arsenal refinished" but it is unique and the prices are really going up on them since they are "drying up" in the supply chain.  I would also love to own a Swiss Ordnance revolver patterned after the many I saw in Swiss Museums during my travels there in 2006 and 2008, but they are very expensive if you find one on "this side of the pond".

Best,

Chris

[rock185]

  My favorite, is my only surplus revolver. A 1918 Webley MK VI.

[Jäger]

Just the family military revolvers from both sides of the family; not really into collecting per se.  Being the only one of the assorted litters to put on a uniform after Korea, they just naturally ended up in my hands.  Two .455 Webleys:



The Webley was carried by a kilted great-grandfather in WWI, then carried by an uncle flying Beaufighters over New Guinea in WWII, then passed on to me on my first all expenses paid tour of interesting spots overseas about 30 years ago.  The Triple Lock I didn't even know about until that distant branch of the family tracked me down a few years ago, because they weren't "gun people" and the person who it had been passed down to had shuffled off this mortal coil.  I was also given his maps for the battle of Amiens from WWI as well, although they kept his rack, diaries, etc.  The maps are absolutely amazing.

Reloading was a bit of an effort to get set up for, but well worth it.  RCBS makes (or did make) a hollow base mould that replicates the last service load for the .455 Webley.  It is a bit spendy, but often helps for those who own Webleys - the smaller diameter of the cylinder mouths compared to the bore diameter is ridiculous.  That big hollow base and thin skirt was probably put there by the Brits for a reason... although it would be interesting to know just why they didn't change cylinder mouth/forcing cone diameters to something that seems more sensible.

I turned down the front of the rim on .45 Schofield cases, then shortened the cases until they would positively chamber in the Webley.  I wasn't trying for some clever advantage i.e. getting the bullet closer to the forcing cone; I just didn't want to do any more turning down of OAL by hand than was necessary.  When the Triple Lock joined the resident herd, I discovered the cases wouldn't quite fully seat in the cylinder - so I had to go through the whole damned exercise of shortening all my Webley brass again.

[CXM]

In my S&W .455 revolvers (a 1st. Model H.E. and a 2nd Model H.E.) results are really disappointing when using bullets sized to .452.

However, with the 250gr 45 Colt bullet sized to .454 I get pretty good results, though for best results you need to load to the upper half of published data... possibly because those loads have enough power to upset the base of the bullet and fill the grooves... though that is just speculation.

Some years Star Line made some brass for the .455 Webley. at about the same time Hornady offered brass and loaded ammo for a couple of years... I suspect the Hornady brass was made by Star Line. Midway stocked it for some time but I have not seen it in a while.

Fiocchi still catalogs .455 Webley ammo as standard production... though I have not seen it in stock recently... it is a part of Fiocchi's fairly long list of obsolete cartridges they offer intermittently... they have a surprisingly wide list of stuff when it is available and the list price isn't out of the world either... though if you find a box from a collectable cartridge dealer it is very dear indeed.

This pic shows the various versions of the Webley .455 revolver cartridge.





The Mk. III is the notorious 'colonial' load... some packages of which were labeled 'not to be used against Europeans.'

You certainly have a couple of very nice revolvers there... the Webley is especially nice.

V/r


Chuck

[Carolinaman]

Hello,

My goodness guys! I really like the Webley revolver and thank you for sharing the pictures... I wish that I could still find one (or perhaps even a Swiss Ordnance revolver), but I doubt that will happen here locally. Jager, what a great story about yours!

Best,

Chris

[Jäger]

Jun 10, 2017 15:31:20 GMT -5 Carolinaman said:

My goodness guys! I really like the Webley revolver and thank you for sharing the pictures... I wish that I could still find one (or perhaps even a Swiss Ordnance revolver), but I doubt that will happen here locally. Jager, what a great story about yours!

Being a mad fan of any old maps to begin with, and military maps in particular, his old maps are possibly more interesting to me than the revolver . I have lots of revolvers; I don't have any other maps carried into a famous battle in WWI.

You will notice some other nearby sectors that became famous in their own right during the next world war: Dunkerque, Antwerp, Dieppe...



The map is over a century old now. Much of the terminology has changed:





It is interesting to notice that the trenches had names, not numbers. Here's a thought: how were they named and how were the names and labels disseminated?

Here's what's really fascinating to a map guy like me: The map hypsography and culture is all printed on the map - linen paper, no less. BUT... BUT...

When you look closely at the map, you see that all the trenchlines, the labeling, battery positions, machine gun positions, dressing stations... THAT IS ALL HAND DRAWN IN.



Now, think about how many maps had to be replicated and distributed to the squads, platoons, regiments, battalions, etc that were going to participate in the attack. Every trenchline, every map feature, had to be in the same place on all those maps: same length, same grid coordinates, etc. Now how does the draftsman replicating one map after another ensure he didn't omit drawing in the odd feature here and there? Maybe get a little bit sloppy - forget to mark a trench as being a dead end, instead of a through trench?

I find that absolutely amazing. BTW, the streak of blue crayon at the botton of the pic is part of a phase line for the attack.







The prize (different map).



Part of the battle plan (also a different map).



Amiens was the battle that essentially broke Germany. Ludendorff called August 8th "Germany's Blackest Day", and went to tell the Kaiser the war was lost. Perhaps more importantly to the enlisted men fighting at the time, it was a battle that put an end to the slaughter of trench warfare and massed machine guns. It was also a number of firsts. Probably the first combined arms attack involving tanks, artillery, and infantry. And the first time Americans fought alongside a multinational force of British, French, Canadian, Australian, and New Zealanders.

There's still dirt from Amiens in checkering and crevices of the handgun.  Which is why cleaning that particular handgun is limited and focused.

You can read about Amiens in a few brief pages online...
www.historyofwar.org/articles/battles_amiens.html
www.historylearningsite.co.uk/world-war-one/battles-of-world-war-one/the-battle-of-amiens/

[bbbbill]

Colt M-1917 New Service in .45ACP.

[Carolinaman]

Jager,

Man, I love those old maps! We could start a whole new thread just based on what you have posted sir!

Thank you for sharing them!

Best,

Chris

[CXM]

Those maps are really interesting... real treasures.

Keeping maps up to date must have been quite a challenge... changing trench lines etc. must have had the ordnance survey people pulling hair out...

In the first map of the city of Amiens the first thing that caught my eye was the Lunatic Asylum on the map... sort of a good caption for the whole war...

V/r

Chuck

[rock185]

Jager, Fascinating family history. Can't imagine how those maps could have been copied accurately and disseminated during war. You are fortunate.  Any old guns in my family must have gone to someone else......

Reference loading for the old Webleys. Mine has been cut for .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim ammo. I assumed that .451"/.452" ammo would be undersized for my ".455" revolver. Wrong, close as I can determine my revolver has approx. .450" chamber throats and bore. I use commercial swaged .452" lead bullets or .451" plated bullets in my Webley. I'd originally wondered if my old revolver would even keep it's shots on the paper at 15 yards. I was pleasantly surprised. It did much better than just keep it's shots on the paper at 15 yds.

    

[Jäger]

My Webley prints about 6" to the left at 25 yards with the faux military load and bullet. Which is maddening to me, being once addicted to PPC competition. I heard through the grapevine the name of a guy who apparently was once a gun plumber in England and who had done lots of work during that service on Webleys, which I presumed would include regulating them for POA=POI. I might be annoyed by the sights not being on, but apparently I was never annoyed enough to contact him to see if he would correct that for me. I would suspect he has passed on since I first heard of him about ten years ago, or at least probably beyond going to work on an old revolver.

There is a replacement front sight for shifting the point of aim, but I doubt it would be enough to totally fix things. I doubt very much you can adjust point of aim as I watched the armorers do with our Model 10s during my policing days... barrel in padded V-blocks, a measured thump with a lead head hammer... "Here, go try it now". Was aghast when I watched that going on, but it worked just fine so obviously they knew a hell of a lot more than I did as a puppy police officer just out of my teen years. They were really old dudes - probably even in their late 30's!

My Webley prints about 6" to the left at 25 yards with the faux military load and bullet. Which is maddening to me, being once addicted to PPC competition. I heard through the grapevine the name of a guy who apparently was once a gun plumber in England and who had done lots of work during that service on Webleys, which I presumed would include regulating them for POA=POI. I might be annoyed by the sights not being on, but apparently I was never annoyed enough to contact him to see if he would correct that for me. I would suspect he has passed on since I first heard of him about ten years ago, or at least probably beyond going to work on an old revolver.

There is a replacement front sight for shifting the point of aim, but I doubt it would be enough to totally fix things. I doubt very much you can adjust point of aim as I watched the armorers do with our Model 10s during my policing days... barrel in padded V-blocks, a measured thump with a lead head hammer... "Here, go try it now". Was aghast when I watched that going on, but it worked just fine so obviously they knew a hell of a lot more than I did as a puppy police officer just out of my teen years. They were really old dudes - probably even in their late 30's!

I have some old Pattern Room drawings I have accumulated over the years after stumbling over them here and there.  One is for the Webley series of revolvers.  Sometimes being a packrat of anything that catches your interest is a good thing...

[rock185]

Jager, My Webley shoots a bit low, as you can see from my target, but fortunately is pretty well centered. I experimented with several light loads in my Webley, and settled on one that produces ~700 FPS with the 230 grain bullets. POA/POI is close enough that I've quit experimenting with this one.

[Jäger]

Well, I'm not intending to CC either the Webley or the Triple Lock, but it just seems like something has been left undone when you have loads all worked up, everything is properly maintained and functioning properly... and it doesn't hit where the sights aim. Unfinished business.

[che]

Awesome thread indeed. Thanks all for sharing.