Kassnar London and FP9 Discussion

[pjk9hp]

Explanation about the "Kassnar London" roll mark on the right side of the slide. When I bought the pistol early 1993 (no manual was included in the styropor package), I noticed that my pistol markings are different from those FEG write-ups in gun magazines I have (e.g. the letters FEG inside a polygon on the left side of the slide and the "HARRISBURG PA" on the right side) . So I wrote a letter directly to FEG Budapest requesting to send me the pistol operating manual and an explanation who "Kassnar London" is. A month later I received a letter from Mr. Paul M. Kassnar himself and it contained this explanation (and I quote):

"...I refer to your letter addressed to FEG Budapest concerning their 9mm pistol that you recently purchased.
To answer your questions, these pistols are the same. The difference in the markings occur as the manufacturer has different agents for sales to different countries. Each agent has his own identification system so that he controls the distribution in his market place.
You are correct, KBI is the agent for U.S.A. and Kassnar International Ltd., London is the agent for various other countries around the world.
As per your request we are sending you an instruction and safety manual for this pistol as well as a catalogue sheet. These pistols are distributed in the Philippines by:
ARMS CORPORATION OF THE PHILIPPINES.......
Cordially yours,
(sgd)
Paul M. Kassnar
Director"
(unquote)

P.S. I did receive a manual for model FP9.

[jaypee]

What a thoroughly interesting piece of FEG history, PJK. thanks very much for sharing it.

JayPee

[ToddSig]

Quote "P.S. I did receive a manual for model FP9.  "

PJK, interesting that KBI/Kassnar sent you an FP9 manual.  I wonder if the early Kassnar manuals and box Styrofoam box sleeves were all printed showing the FP9 and then later changed when the US divisions went to KBI.

I have a Kassnar PJK-9HP (P9) from 1986 with the original box sleeve, Styrofoam insert, manual and FEG test certificate, all properly serialized to the PJK-9HP/P9. The manual and the outer box sleeve are both printed with images of the FP9 and not the P9.

[jaypee]

Jul 12, 2017 19:14:51 GMT -5 ToddSig said:

Quote "P.S. I did receive a manual for model FP9.  "

PJK, interesting that KBI/Kassnar sent you an FP9 manual.  I wonder if the early Kassnar manuals and box Styrofoam box sleeves were all printed showing the FP9 and then later changed when the US divisions went to KBI.

I have a Kassnar PJK-9HP (P9) from 1986 with the original box sleeve, Styrofoam insert, manual and FEG test certificate, all properly serialized to the PJK-9HP/P9. The manual and the outer box sleeve are both printed with images of the FP9 and not the P9.

One possible reason for that is that when FEG first began producing the P9, FN was furious with them for reverse engineering the High Power. Hungary was still a Communist nation doing limited business with the capitalist West, so FEG couldn't really afford to infuriate one of the biggest players in Western gunmaking, FN. So to placate them, FEG mounted a rib on the P9 and called it the FP9, hoping that the rib would make it look less like the BHP. This is per a conversation I had several years ago with Michael J. Kassnar, CEO of both Kassnar Imports and KBI. 

Now, it would stand to reason that if FEG tried to disguise the P9 with a rib in order to placate FN, they would also not want a likeness of the BHP on their packaging or manuals, and used a likeness of the FP9 instead. This is just speculation on my part but seems logical considering the events of that time. Mr Kassnar didn't tell me how long this charade went on, but indicated that only about 500 FP9's were imported during the initial period of 1985-87.

Another possibility is that FEG made use of "parts on hand" and if they had an overage of FP9 boxes and manuals, I don't think they would have hesitated one minute to ship P9's in them, which they obviously did. Like I said, this is always a possibility.

The FEG story remains one of the most elusive stories in all of shootery, and this is just another example of who's on first and what's on second in Budapest. 

[ToddSig]

Perhaps the same design rationale may also explain why the early Kassnar P9s and FP9s had the flared grip.

[pjk9hp]

Speaking of FP9 models, maybe some of you may have noticed already. In the photos (cropped taken from photos in the internet) below, the FP9 model at the left has the edge from the rear end of the slide radically flared (deviating from the convex form) towards the beaver tail (slightly similar to the Arcus model) and having a flared front strap. However the FP9 models at the right has the usual BHP slide convex rear end having an unflared bottom front of the grip frame. I haven't seen a photo of production FP9 with a model having the flared rear end of the slide with unflared bottom front strap or the model with slide's convex rear end with flared bottom front strap. Unless they are interchangeable with each other.

[jaypee]

I hope you gentlemen won't mind, but this was just too good of a FEG thread to leave in the HP Photo thread. Please continue your discussion.

PJK9HP, if you'd like to re-post your photos of your Kassnar London P9 to the HP Photo Thread, that's perfectly all right. Hope all of this meets with everyone's approval.

JayPee

[ToddSig]

Great images PJK, here are some of the slide and frame variations I have.

1986 Kassnar P9, with Millet sights, having flared grip and traditional BHP style slide and frame



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[ToddSig]

Kassnar FP9, probably also a 1986 but no documentation. With the flared grip and the FEG slide frame variant.




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[ToddSig]

Here is a 1990s CAI import FP9 with both the traditional BHP style grip and rear slide/frame combination.

[pjk9hp]

Jul 13, 2017 12:10:59 GMT -5 jaypee said:

I hope you gentlemen won't mind, but this was just too good of a FEG thread to leave in the HP Photo thread. Please continue your discussion.

PJK9HP, if you'd like to re-post your photos of your Kassnar London P9 to the HP Photo Thread, that's perfectly all right. Hope all of this meets with everyone's approval.

JayPee

Hi JayPee,

I'm happy to see it has a thread and for other owners to show their "Kassnar London" roll marked FEGs. Thank you for transferring it here. 

Regards....

[pjk9hp]

Hi JayPee,

I was just reading a thread in another forum where you mentioned (post #18) about "Kassnar" marked FEG being part of original batched marketed during '85 and'86. Would my "Kassnar London" marked FEG belonged to those years? Or was it only for "Kassnar Imports"?
www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=338784

Thanks...

[jaypee]

Jul 14, 2017 1:56:15 GMT -5 pjk9hp said:

Hi JayPee,

I was just reading a thread in another forum where you mentioned (post #18) about "Kassnar" marked FEG being part of original batched marketed during '85 and'86. Would my "Kassnar London" marked FEG belonged to those years? Or was it only for "Kassnar Imports"?
www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=338784

Thanks...

I don't have an authoritative answer, PJK, but here is what I think. Kassnar Imports and Kassnar London were different businesses. The Senior Mister Kassnar moved to London and started a business separate from the Kassnar Imports in Harrisburg, PA sometime in the mid-80's. The original Kassnar Imports of Harrisburg had started doing business with the Communist FEG firm in Budapest in 1985, and did so until 1987 when diplomatic relations with Communist Hungary collapsed and the State Department cancelled all of the importers' import permits. This left a ton of guns and money still in the pipeline. Shipments of FEG pistols and rifles were literally impounded and sitting in ports-the Feds would not even allow them to be unloaded. Kassnar Imports of Harrisburg and the others petitioned the State Department to allow them to finish their immediate contracts with FEG, which was successful. But importation into the U.S. was nonetheless completely stopped in 1987 with the fulfillment of these immediate contracts, and didn't resume until after the collapse of the Warsaw Pact.



So here's where the plot thickens. It seems that Kassnar London would have had an import permit issued by the British Government instead of the U.S. Government, and I don't know if the Brits followed the same path as the US Department of State and cancelled import permits with Hungary or not. If they did, then your pistol could prolly be dated in, I would think, 1986 or '87. (Sorry to be vague, but I don't know exactly when Kassnar London was founded or when it went out of business.) But if the Brits allowed importation to continue without impediment, then dating your pistol would be almost impossible.Another very intriguing part of the FEG story.



The historical information above was provided in a series of telephone conversations I had with Michael J. Kassnar several years ago. This isn't much to hang your hat on, but I hope it sheds some light on your pistol's history nonetheless.



Best wishes



JayPee

[sistema1927]

Jul 12, 2017 8:57:42 GMT -5 pjk9hp said:

P.S. I did receive a manual for model FP9.

Would you have the opportunity to digitize it and put it in the Non-browning manuals thread?

I find it very interesting that ARMSCOR imported Hungarian FEG Hi Powers into the PI instead of making them themselves.

[pjk9hp]

Jul 14, 2017 16:08:08 GMT -5 sistema1927 said:

Jul 12, 2017 8:57:42 GMT -5 pjk9hp said:

P.S. I did receive a manual for model FP9.

Would you have the opportunity to digitize it and put it in the Non-browning manuals thread?

I find it very interesting that ARMSCOR imported Hungarian FEG Hi Powers into the PI instead of making them themselves.

Hi sistema1927,

I will once I get the manual from a brother who borrowed it couple of years ago (he bought a FEG P9 too years back) since no manual was available from the package. BTW, on another forum thread last year, ToddSig has offered to have a pdf copy. That's the same manual that Mr. Kassnar sent me. Maybe he has the pdf copy already and let's ask him if he can offer to post it here. We all will be happy.  

forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?p=6260425