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Post by wheatshocker on Jan 4, 2023 16:39:39 GMT -5
Thanks for the updates Todd and sharing your wealth of knowledge.
I have acquired an alloy frame Hi-Power and an FM Detective slide kit with the intention of mating them together for a nice lightweight carry pistol. I have admired some of your collection of Detectives and would like to build something similar.
Do you have any specific recommendations for who could do some finishing and installation of some nicer sights (ie, Heinle, Meprolight, Tru Glo). Things I should/could do? Trigger work, springs, polishing, stippling?
I kind of like the looks of Heinle sights but want to make sure I'm not overlooking other good possible options.
I would like to get a custom finish like Cerakote or DLC. Would you have any suggestions?
Any other things I should be sure to do, or NOT do? (lessons learned).
I'm willing to spend some money, but don't want to go too crazy.
Please move my post to the appropriate forum if this is not the best place.
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 4, 2023 17:58:45 GMT -5
It is getting to a process to have work done by some of the better known Hi Power gunsmiths. Many now have waiting lists of over a year, and then several additional months to perform the work. Bob Cogan at Accurate Plating and Weaponry apwcogan.com/ is one of the few Hi Power specialist with shorter acceptance periods and faster turnaround times. Reach out to Bob, he is great to talk to about Hi Powers. He has done custom work on about 4 or 5 Hi Powers for me and I have been very pleased with all of his work. He can do sights, trigger work, stippling, beaver tail, make a safety, pretty much whatever you want. He recently did a detective slide where he did the step down slide muzzle to look like a Browning/Behlert style chopped Hi Power. Bob is also one of the best refinishers in the trade, particularly with hard chrome. He can also do cerekote and DLC. I prefer DLC, as the finish almost looks like bluing but is much harder. Cerekote in many examples still has a tendency to look like a thick paint. Not sure if you can DLC the alloy frame, but Bob would be able to tell you. Bob has hard chromed an allow for me in the past (will try to get some images posted later tonight). I have a Hi Power with Don Williams at Actionworks now, and we are going with a DLC finish. Now if you wish to do a lot of the work yourself you can get drop in parts like the C&S triggers, safeties and hammers, or BHSS trigger. You can send the slide to either Novak or Heine for sight dovetail cuts and installation. Refinishing is always difficult to do yourself. I have done a little using Gunkote with an airbrush. Results are OK, but better left to the pros. Some images of Bob Cogan's work on a Hi Power, - Beavertail - French Cut Borders - Grip strap stippling - C&S Hammer - C&S wide trigger, straightened by bob - Heinie sights - Slide top and rear serrations - Custom made safety - Trigger Job DLC finish (including barrel). I really like the DLC, as it looks thin, like bluing and not painted or sprayed on. It is more expensive. A known smith like Bob might also be able to get parts no longer available to the private collector, like the Nighthawk/Garthwaite trigger.
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 4, 2023 20:16:32 GMT -5
Here is another example of Bob Cogan's work at APW, an Alloy he hard chromed for me and added Kensight adjustable sights and some trigger work. Dates from 1979 with brushed flats and matte rounds.
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 4, 2023 20:27:29 GMT -5
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Post by CXM on Jan 5, 2023 13:07:41 GMT -5
That is a handsome Detective Todd... Chuck
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Post by wheatshocker on Jan 5, 2023 13:13:13 GMT -5
Wow, a whole new dedicated thread to my current favorite topic! Thanks for sharing. My alloy frame appears to have the round splined barrel cam: What's the difference in barrel cam implementations in terms of fit (esp with Detective slide kit), function, durability, etc? My alloy frame is from R Guns, Carpentersville, IL: As far as I can tell, the internal action seems to be in decent shape with no apparent damage or excessive wear. External surfaces are obviously well worn, presumably from frequent holster carrying and being thrown around. The Serial # is 215RN30126. Is there any reliable way of dating the manufacture? Any other important differences between my frame and your FN 75C frame that I need to be aware of? I haven't tried fitting the detective slide to the frame yet, so I'm hoping I don't run into any fitting issues. Also, I want to avoid issues like what TNorris outlined in another older thread: "The FM short slide works better on an FM frame than it does on an FN frame... like my FN Alloy. There was a bit of a hiccup in mine... sometimes the trigger would not fully reset. A little (very little) jiggle of the trigger finger allowed it to reset and fire, not good for a self defense "on the street" gun. Shortening the trigger lever cured that problem and turned the set up into a wonderfully reliable pistol. However, when I used the same shortened trigger lever with the original FN slide... it would sometimes fire twice with one trigger pull. That slide is now mothballed along with a spare trigger lever. The FM product appears to not be an exact copy of the original High Power." Are there trigger parts or work that I need to consider in order to avoid issues like this? Any others, please feel free to chime in with your thoughts as well! Thanks, Phil
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Post by CXM on Jan 5, 2023 13:51:49 GMT -5
That is a handsome Detective Todd... Chuck
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Post by tnorris on Jan 5, 2023 14:03:11 GMT -5
The Serial # is 215RN30126. Is there any reliable way of dating the manufacture? Any other important differences between my frame and your FN 75C frame that I need to be aware of? I haven't tried fitting the detective slide to the frame yet, so I'm hoping I don't run into any fitting issues. Also, I want to avoid issues like what TNorris outlined in another older thread: "The FM short slide works better on an FM frame than it does on an FN frame... like my FN Alloy. There was a bit of a hiccup in mine... sometimes the trigger would not fully reset. A little (very little) jiggle of the trigger finger allowed it to reset and fire, not good for a self defense "on the street" gun. Shortening the trigger lever cured that problem and turned the set up into a wonderfully reliable pistol. However, when I used the same shortened trigger lever with the original FN slide... it would sometimes fire twice with one trigger pull. That slide is now mothballed along with a spare trigger lever. The FM product appears to not be an exact copy of the original High Power." Are there trigger parts or work that I need to consider in order to avoid issues like this?Any others, please feel free to chime in with your thoughts as well! Thanks, Phil
Hi Phil,
Yours is from 1979 (RN).
I have three of 'em now. My first was a 1981 from R-Guns. I was able to look at a bunch in person a few years ago. They were all pretty nice. Number three is RN30516. Both have the round cam. I also have a 1975 version with the pressed in cam. The '79 is waiting to be mated to a .22 conversion kit. The '75 is waiting for another Detective slide.
Best you can do...
-Maybe install a full set of new springs and make sure it runs right with the original slide first.
-Mount the Detective slide and see how it functions.
-If it seems to function properly, take it to the range a number of times to see how she runs. Take notes of possible problems.With any luck you will have zero problems.
I wanted a convertible pistol... short or standard slide. Apparently this is not always possible when mixing major components from different manufacturers. This is why Alloy #3 will become a dedicated .22 caliber pistol!
Number One is now sporting the BHSS Trigger, which they installed for me a couple years ago. I have had absolutely no issues with it including a couple hundred rounds just before Christmas. I have not yet tried the original full sized slide with the new trigger. There is no need for it.
Cheers,
Tim
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 5, 2023 14:44:06 GMT -5
Tim makes some great points. The Detective slide I bought of Ebay (now on my 75c alloy) would not fit on another alloy frame that I had. Slid on, then tighten up the more it slid on to the point it would get stuck. Fit the 75c without issue, as well as other steel framed Hi Powers. So sometimes the tolerances are just slightly off. Most times the Detective slides fit on both the steel and alloy frames without issue. Only way to know is to try. I have some of the RGuns alloy High Powers as well. First thing I do is remove the secondary import mark. I wont buy a High Power with a secondary import mark in a conspicuous spot. RGuns and Mach 1 marks are all pretty easy to remove. Regarding barrels, the shape of the barrel lug is slightly different for the round splined version vs the pressed in cam. An image of a Detective barrel for the pressed in cam, a 75c barrel for the pressed in cam, and a 79 allow barrel with the rounded barrel lug for the splined cam. I am told they all will work, but of course better to have the proper fit if possible. Perhaps, Tim, CXM or Bob Reed can chime in on mating the different shaped barrel lugs and cams.
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Post by wheatshocker on Jan 5, 2023 15:43:59 GMT -5
By secondary import mark, I'm assuming you mean this: It looks like the barrel lug on my Detective slide kit barrel is squared instead of rounded, which may not be ideal for mating with the round barrel cam on my alloy frame. Do I have any options to workaround this, or should I just try it and see? I suppose there may be aftermarket 3 7/8" barrels with rounded barrel lug available to buy, but I wasn't counting on spending that much coin just yet. Thanks, Phil
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Post by wheatshocker on Jan 5, 2023 16:40:29 GMT -5
I slid the Detective slide onto the alloy frame and it seemed to fit fine. I didn't notice any binding on installation or racking. So far, so good
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 5, 2023 17:39:30 GMT -5
Yes, that is the secondary import mark I mentioned. I take a small drum sander on my dremel and very lightly, with light multiple passes and the mark is easily removed. A little 200+ sandpaper will smooth things out.
Regarding the barrel lug and cam, from what I understand, only 1975 alloy High Powers had the squared barrel lug and pressed in locking cam, while 1976 and later alloy High Powers had the round barrel lug and splined locking cam. Since most alloy frames had the splined locking cam, and Detective barrels had the squared lug, it seems they are interchangeable and can work together. I would assume squared and squared and round and round work best, but in many cases that is not possible when mating an alloy to a Detective slide.
Back in 2009 master hi power smith Ted Yost posted on the alloy frame cams "Splined on both ends, removable for refinishing. A pressed in cam like the steel framed guns have would loosen up with use and walk out." With that, it seems the pressed in cams had issues in the alloy frames and that is why later versions had the round locking cam.
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 5, 2023 18:54:32 GMT -5
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Post by wheatshocker on Jan 6, 2023 8:10:26 GMT -5
That hard chrome looks nice. The pictures probably don't do it justice. It almost looks white on my monitor.
Does the hard chrome actually 'harden' the metal in some way?
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Post by ToddSig on Jan 6, 2023 9:24:21 GMT -5
That hard chrome looks nice. The pictures probably don't do it justice. It almost looks white on my monitor. Does the hard chrome actually 'harden' the metal in some way? Has a white look on my monitor as well. Probably more of a silver tone than what shows in the image, On Hard Chrome, I dont think it impacts the hardness of the metal, as it sits on top of the metal. From Bob Cogan/APW page about finishes, apwcogan.com/what-is-refinishing/Plated finishes of any kind offer the greatest wear resistance and a very high degree of corrosion resistance. The finish is the final covering of metal that resides on the surface of the firearm or golf club. What ever the metal surface looks like before plating, when plated, it looks the same. So we first create a surface, like matte or brushed or high polish and then we plate and the plate takes on he characteristics of the metal.
Most plated finishes have hardness ratings greater than the base metal they are applied to. And offer superb corrosion resistance in the 100 salt test level. Preparation: We use both chemical, stuff you don’t normally find in your garage and manual methods such as buffing and sanding to prepare the metal for finishing.
We have to remove the old finish and make sure the surface is properly prepared to accept and bond to the new finish. The plated finishes like chrome easily restore the dimensions lost from the removal to insure proper function.
Proper preparation includes the texture, acidity, or neutralization, cleanliness, flaw removal, parts fit, and a hundred other things….
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