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Post by cadbane501 on Oct 27, 2022 10:06:15 GMT -5
I am planning on buying a b suffix hi-power in fairly good overall condition. The seller says he has shot it and it is reliable. He didn’t say how much he has shot out of it, but I don’t plan on shooting it that much and definitely nothing spicy. If it is a concern is there anything I can do to minimize stress on it like springs and replacement parts?
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Post by p35 on Oct 27, 2022 10:29:32 GMT -5
I hope Anthony doesn't mind me posting a photo of one page from his book, FN Browning Pistols, Sidearms that shaped world History. This is from page 297 of the book and I have spoken with Anthony a couple of times over some pistols I have and he is one sharp guy when it comes to these pistols. As far as I know he is the only writer that has ever been allowed in the plant to research their data and actually speak with workers that were in the plant.  |
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Post by cadbane501 on Oct 27, 2022 10:48:50 GMT -5
Mine is a wa140 but does not fall into the supposed serial range mentioned in the book.
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Post by p35 on Oct 27, 2022 10:56:28 GMT -5
Mine is a wa140 but does not fall into the supposed serial range mentioned in the book. You are only looking at the beginning of pages and pages of WaA140 produced guns. I can assure you yours not only does fall under that guide but it was produced much later when most of the workers in the plant were forced labor. You have to make the decision if you want to shoot it or not. The odds are nothing bad will happen however the people that made them did make them with flaws on purpose and the failure rates of springs, extractors, sights coming loose and falling out as well as malfunctions from poor machining was common on the guns. If one piece breaks even if you find a replacement it will never be a 100% authentic gun again and the value of it as a collector will be greatly diminished IMHO. |
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Post by cadbane501 on Oct 27, 2022 11:09:04 GMT -5
The plan is buy replacement parts and take out of the originals and keep those. Get new springs and a new extractor. If the sights loosen then that can be remedied. I do a similar thing with my Lugers. Take out the pieces that are prone to breaking and shoot it with the replacement parts.
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Post by cadbane501 on Oct 27, 2022 11:22:22 GMT -5
Do you think by replacing the pieces that are prone to breaking will make it safer to shoot?
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Post by p35 on Oct 27, 2022 11:27:44 GMT -5
The plan is buy replacement parts and take out of the originals and keep those. Get new springs and a new extractor. If the sights loosen then that can be remedied. I do a similar thing with my Lugers. Take out the pieces that are prone to breaking and shoot it with the replacement parts. Sounds like you have a plan. Curious what parts you change on your Lugers? While most of mine I never shoot I do have a 1916 DWM that was captured from a concentration camp guard at Landsberg concentration camp. The soldier that captured it ruined the value of it IMHO. At the end of the war he had two German POWs working for him and they took the gun to a metal shop and had it plated. Since it doesn't have the original finish or magazine it has become my Luger shooter over the years and never an issue with it. I have seen photos of some broken firing pins over the years but that's about all I've seen. Even though there were a few forced laborers in the Mauser plant in Oberndorf they never had much to do with production and mostly just were used for moving, stacking, cleaning and etc. Not to mention the production of the Luger ended in 1942. |
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Post by p35 on Oct 27, 2022 11:30:58 GMT -5
Do you think by replacing the pieces that are prone to breaking will make it safer to shoot? It all depends on what it's worth to you to shoot it. If I was dead set on shooting it I would replace the buffer spring and extractor. I always think back to the movie Josey Wales and the Indian with his hard rock candy. Even though it was candy and could be eaten he kept his just for looking.  |
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Post by cadbane501 on Oct 27, 2022 13:09:32 GMT -5
Yeah. I plan on replacing the springs, including the buffer spring and the extractor. I don’t know much else that would be a problem besides maybe the sights. Beyond that I don’t think there would be much concern. When it comes to replacement parts on Lugers, the idea is replace the firing pin and the hold open and it’s spring. At least that’s what I believe. That’s the only things on a Luger that are prone to breaking. The barrel extensions sometimes experience stress cracks, but I’ve never heard of one breaking. I did see a Reddit post of someone having there toggle link break. It was definitely a sad sight to see. Crying shame. Either it was a Luger that developed a problem somewhere down the line, had a manufacturing, or he put in something super spicy or something. I’ve not seen any major malfunctions with a Luger. Very well built.
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Post by tnorris on Oct 27, 2022 15:24:15 GMT -5
Yeah. I plan on replacing the springs, including the buffer spring and the extractor. I don’t know much else that would be a problem besides maybe the sights. Beyond that I don’t think there would be much concern.
My Occupation Pistol is an early ' a ' suffix. I have replaced only parts that were designed as replaceable parts. No modifications, such as sights, were required. The cost for parts could be over $200 plus taxes and shipping for quality new parts. Do not be cheap!
The SEAR SPRING should be your first concern. It will be nearly flat by now. If I could replace only one part, this would be the part. My new SEAR SPRING is a spare, leftover from an SFS kit. It works perfectly, even though it looks different. Easier to install. BHSS may sell them separately but they are listed at $40 for a set of two types.
Your TRIGGER RETURN SPRING will be shot. I replaced mine with the 2 coil trigger spring from BHSS, another spare part from a C&S Wide Trigger I bought from them. $16 for a three pack.
A standard 17# RECOIL SPRING should work fine... free from BHSS if you use the discount code [ FreeRecoilSpring ] at checkout... you pay for shipping. Value is $5.89.
You also will want to replace the RECOIL SPRING GUIDE ROD with a new one. The BHSS Buffered version does not work in my Occupation Pistol, but the standard version does. Your original Guide Rod will have a slot on the muzzle end (see third photo) and should be considered a museum piece. Replace it. $40 new.
I replaced the EXTRACTOR with a new production version from Jack First Gun Parts. Don't even bother with the used extractors from Numrich and Sarco... you are just throwing your money away. I believe I did not need to replace this part. The original was in good shape... better than the used ones from Numrich or Sarco. $90 new.
I have still not replaced the main spring on mine. Perhaps I'll get around to it this winter. $18 for a 4 pack in your choice of weights from 24-32#s. Yep... I have spares from BHSS spring kits.
I also replaced the SEAR with a part leftover from an '80s BHP. You can see it in the attached Sear Spring picture. A reconditioned sear is only $10 from BHSS. I would trust their reconditioned parts far more than anything from Numrich, Sarco or other used parts places. Jack First also has used parts for High Powers of 1935-1962 vintage.
My Occupation Pistol is rarely fired, but performs well.
The first photo is attached to illustrate the SEAR SPRING problem. A worn out sear spring may cause hammer follow with accidental discharge(s). No spring is designed to last forever. High Power springs should be replaced every 5 years or 5000 rounds, give or take, whether it is frequently used or sits in your safe. The Occupation Pistols are nearly 80 years old and were produced by forced labor.
Be careful and be safe!
Cheers,
Tim
You can see by the shadows below each spring how they flatten and lose the ability to work properly.
A new SFS sear spring installed in the 1943 pistol.
The condition of the wooden grips was poor. You can see the muzzle end of the original Recoil Spring Guide Rod with the 'screwdriver' slot to the right. There is a spring of some sort in there. It was not meant to be adjustable. A new Recoil Spring Guide Rod works in these pistols.
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Post by Bob Reed on Oct 27, 2022 19:35:50 GMT -5
Hello,
When the Hammer is forward/down against the Firing Pin Retaining Plate, make sure the Hammer is being held firmly against the Retaining Plate by the Mainspring's tension. I say this because, the last occupational HP that I resprung & cleaned suffered from the hammer not being held firmly against the retaining plate when in the forward/down position w/new mainspring installed - you could move the slide/bbl. out of battery with lite finger pressure before you took-up the slack and felt mainspring tension. Obviously if a gun in this condition was fired, the slide & barrel would unlock way to fast and literally fly outta battery and in turn cause the rounding of locking lugs and possibly even break the locking cam. Of course, cracking the frame and/or slide could occur as well.
The owner of this HP, a collector, understood and decided to leave it as-is and NOT fire it since I'd have to replace the original hammer & strut to gain some forward leverage. Remember, Post-War, FN changed the location of the Hammer Strut Pin for better geometry - so, you can't mix Pre-War & Post-War Hammers & Struts.
I suspect the better mechanical advantage offered by a Post-War Hammer & Strut Assy. would have cured this HP - but then it wouldn't have been an all-original occupational High Power...
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Post by cadbane501 on Oct 28, 2022 11:42:05 GMT -5
Would it be overzealous to get another firing pin as well? I’ve not heard of them being prone to breaking but I am no expert.
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Post by ToddSig on Oct 28, 2022 11:51:16 GMT -5
I dont think it is overzealous to have spare parts. Always good to have some backup/replacements parts in the event something happens. This is especially true with older High Powers with potentially used/worn parts. Many small internal parts are inexpensive, so always good to have backup.
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Post by CXM on Oct 30, 2022 9:25:09 GMT -5
I have several Occupation HPs I acquired over the years, including one from Gary Cole who imported a truck load of used HPs from Israel about 10 years or so ago... I'm pretty sure the ex Izzy guns led a very hard life in their service. Anyway, I replaced the springs in the ex Izzy gun and left the other two alone... I have fired all of them and have not had a problem with them, but I don't shoot them often. As best I can sort out, the sabotage done at FN was not of a type that would blow a gun up... which makes sense because they had to test fire every gun before it left the factory. The best I can determine is the sabotage was in the form of things that made the guns wear out prematurely and have parts fail in use. This seems logical given the fact the Schutz Staffel (SS) got the majority of the HPs produced at FN... It was not considered really good form to make them mad if you lived in an occupied country. A spring failing or other part failing in service could be blamed on the poor quality of material available at the time. I'd inspect a war time HP carefully and if all was well I would fire it... but not very much... they are old enough to deserve a quiet retirement...  FWIW Chuck |
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Post by Bob Reed on Oct 31, 2022 9:44:49 GMT -5
Hello, Chuck,
Your assessment accurately describes how I believe the sabotaging would have been done. Also, keep-n-mind - not all Belgians were against the Germans, so the ones that were, would have to really keep any attempts at sabotaging to themselves...
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