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Post by CXM on Jun 10, 2017 8:06:11 GMT -5
For use with a .45ACP revolver it might be worthwhile to take a look at some of Elmer Keith's loads for the .45 Auto Rim (and no reason these could not be loaded in plain 45ACP with a moon clip) using a Keith cast bullet at about 250 grains over a generous helping of Hercules (now Alliant) 2400 powder.
Keith wrote that these loads worked very well with the deep penetration that is needed for dangerous animals.
Star Line still offers 45AR brass and the rest of what is needed is readily available from commercial sources. I some of the 250gr Keith bullets cast by a commercial outfit that used to be in Amarillo Texas... I don't load them much but I used them in my 5" 625 revolver and they worked very well... though I don't see them as offering much advantage over plain jane .45ACP cases and moon clips...
FWIW
Chuck
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Post by Jäger on Jun 10, 2017 10:29:52 GMT -5
Nice pistolas, guys! I'll have to poke around and see what SG Ammo has. Not many companies ship to my state, but SG Ammo has been very good to deal with. I don't know why it didn't occur to me before Burgs... but isn't that just about the perfect excuse to go shopping for a new pistola? With your roots in the world of resolvers, there's that S&W L frame that holds 5 rounds of 44 Magnum - the ultimate J frame resolver, perhaps? I wouldn't mind trying a cylinder full out of that puppy to see if I could manage it. Getting 45 ACP 1911's to work as bear wrenches isn't anything new: forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=152457I tend to think that the ubiquitous discussions regarding whether or not x caliber with x bullet will stop a bear tend to be based on a scenario reminiscent of the old Winchester calendars. In some cases, you MIGHT actually end up in the classic scenario so many visualize: going for the head shot at a bear coming at you at the speed of heat. In the four or five instances I know of where the facts are not in dispute, the handgun didn't even get into the dispute until AFTER the critter was interacting with the hero of our story. To generalize, it was basically feeding the critter a spare leg or arm while the other put the muzzle to fur and started pulling the trigger. Not exactly what everybody envisions. Three of the most recent, well documented ones in the last couple of years. Guy hunting not to far from here, near Libby if I remember, got ambushed by a cougar who took him down from behind. Had him down on his stomach while trying to get at his neck through his pack; buddy draws his Glock, gets it somehow or other pointed back over his shoulder or around his side and starts emptying the magazine. Cougar disappears, never to be seen again; buddy gets away with some relatively minor scratches and a shredded pack. Local photographer is on a day hike in Glacier when a bear decides on some personal interaction. The guy fires his bear spray first; when that doesn't work he goes .357 Magnum. He does hit the grumbly bear; whether the wounds or the noise and furor, the bear departs and the hiker survives unscathed. To be charged by the wardens for shooting the bear, BTW - a charge that was quickly quashed when the locals arose in outrage. Despite the few watermelons around here who started the usual "what about the bear" bullcrap. We have enough bear (and cougar) maulings around here on a yearly basis that the Sierra Club whining does arise all the time, but it doesn't get much traction. Longtime guide and writer Phil Shoemaker (last year I think) killed a grumbly bear in a gun/bear fight with a 9mm of all things in a dense alder thicket when it decided to get personal with him and his two clients. His account of it is easily found on the Internet with a bit of Google-fu. I don't recall him explaining why he was carrying a 9mm of all things while out in the bush in bear country in Alaska - from what I have read of his writing, he is not shy about big calibers. Anyways, just like decisions on whether or not to carry a spare magazine in the urban world (I don't), I don't get too wrapped around the axle about whether or not I have the penultimate bear wrench in the handgun I carry. Just like urban carry, it's about what you think is the most likely. For the bush, I think it's most likely that any shooting that needs to be done will probably happen after any chance to stop the charge is gone. And at muzzle to fur distances, chances are anything from .357 Mag upward is going to kind of be pretty much the same. I wouldn't sweat having nothing in a handgun but a 45 ACP with purpose-built bear wrench loads, just as I don't sweat the fact my 10mm is not and never will be a 44 Magnum.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 13:48:14 GMT -5
I don't worry about it much at all either. At this point the bears would have to come inside and get me, and as I like them a lot I wouldn't be inclined to shoot one unless all other options were exhausted anyway. First line of defense would be the 3 dogs, who delight at barking at stuff they find unusual.
Recently we had a very large one at our front door. In conversation with my wife, we discussed as how nothing in the current battery would be a reasonable bear stopper. So, thinking out loud, and not wanting to adopt another caliber, I was musing on what .45 ACP load might work best in a pinch. SG has some "out of stock" loads of interest, including a flat point TMJ +P load that is interesting.
I believe it was Elmer Keith who wrote of a hunting guide who got himself treed by a grizzly. Faced by a grizzly who had some tree climbing expertise, the guide resolved his problem with a Luger aiming through the bear's open mouth.
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Post by Jäger on Jun 10, 2017 14:31:07 GMT -5
I believe it was Elmer Keith who wrote of a hunting guide who got himself treed by a grizzly. Faced by a grizzly who had some tree climbing expertise, the guide resolved his problem with a Luger aiming through the bear's open mouth. Anybody who buys into that line that "grumbly bears can't climb trees" has not spent much time around and watching grumbly bears. Watching grumbly bears around here is a favorite pastime when the slides are dry of sheep and goats, but the bears are not. More mountain hunts result in critter watching rather than critter stalking/shooting, no matter what the intended species is. First, they might consider that grumbly cubs are perfectly capable of climbing trees - all of them. Momma regularly runs the cubs up a tree when there are immediate threats she doesn't think they can just run away from. So it's not like they don't have any past experience or memories to fall back on. And wildlife biologists tell us that bears are single event learners, so that's not encouraging. Second, they might consider that even dogs that want a squirrel, coon, etc bad enough can climb trees if there are enough branches to hook leg parts over. That works for grumbly bears as well. About the only thing that stops adult grumbly bears from climbing trees is a) they aren't that scared enough or don't want to go up a tree bad enough, or b) they're big enough and heavy enough that their claws can't support their weight in the bark of the tree. I have seen young adult grumbly bears out on their own climb trees without any problem when some guys cougar dogs got on their track instead. Climbing a tree with an aggressive grumbly nearby is not a bad thing to do if the only other alternative is to run. But I would not bet my life that "grumbly bears can't climb trees". But it is almost always black bears that are the ones that engage in predatory behavior towards people. Grumblies, the issue is usually ending up in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Post by Carolinaman on Jun 10, 2017 14:48:00 GMT -5
Great Post Jager! Yep! I have had a few encounters with Black Bears here in North Myrtle Beach and they are very "stealthy". I used to work at a local golf resort as a Restaurant Manager and would regularly go to work and carry my S&W 642 and lock in the safe when I got to work.... (We were a very gun friendly place). In the evening and out where I parked I would often see Black Bear tracks by the dumpster... So, out would come the Smith when I went home never knowing what might be around.... Now, I know that most here wouldn't think a .38 special is any kind of "Bear medicine", but I took comfort in that little revolver... Best, Chris
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Post by CXM on Jun 11, 2017 10:23:35 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 13:07:47 GMT -5
Chuck,
That's an amazing article! Thank you so much for taking the time to post it.
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Post by gt40doc on Jun 12, 2017 15:06:23 GMT -5
I enjoyed reading that article!! I have a friend in Hoonah Ak. that had a big boar grizzly trying to get into his garage via a window. The bear was too big to get through, and Ken got the bear to stop trying by screaming at him. The bear turned and headed for the brush. Ken thought he shot the bear in the butt with a 22cal rifle, in an attempt to persuade the bear to moving in that direction. It was dark outside so Ken waited until the next morning to check things out. Low and behold, that big grizzly bear was stone cold dead about 50 yards into the brush. It definitely got Ken's attention. When he is out and about, he usually always has a 300 Win Mag with him for any griz encounter, which are fairly frequent!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 16:27:17 GMT -5
Hello to all,
Jager, Submoa seconded your Double Tap recommendation. As a plus, they also deliver to my particular Socialist Paradise, which happened to arrive today. I got a couple of boxes of:
.40 S&W 200gr hardcast solid at 1100 fps .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ FP at 960 fps
That should leave a mark. Like I said though, I really like bears, so it would have to be an extreme family or dogs (same thing) situation.
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Post by Jäger on Jun 20, 2017 17:58:54 GMT -5
Hello to all, Jager, Submoa seconded your Double Tap recommendation. As a plus, they also deliver to my particular Socialist Paradise, which happened to arrive today. I got a couple of boxes of: .40 S&W 200gr hardcast solid at 1100 fps .45 ACP 230 gr FMJ FP at 960 fps That should leave a mark. Like I said though, I really like bears, so it would have to be an extreme family or dogs (same thing) situation. I actually tend to prefer Underwood and sometimes Buffalo Bore over Double Tap, everything else being equal (i.e. the bullet style). Mike McNett kind of popularized the boutique manufacturer biz, although Lee Juraas is probably The Original when it comes to boutique. However, Double Tap was having some widespread QC issues a while back; don't know whether McNett has sorted them out or not. Real velocities well below advertised velocities, etc. Not too far from my formerly CLP-oily hands, I have a box of those very 40 S&W loads you just bought - same purchase decision that you made. Marketed back then as "200gr. WFN Beartooth". And not one of them will chamber in any of my three HP 40's, nor the 40 barrel for the Dan Wesson CBOB. Lot #001278, dated Mar 2007. Now the other two boxes from the same purchase fed and fired without a hitch. It was only when I opened the last remaining box and found not a single one would chamber that I realized I had a problem. But by then the cardboard boxes from the previous two boxes were long gone, so I don't know if they were all from the same lot. I am sure Double Tap would replace them without a thought, I just haven't gotten around to it. And I do buy Double Tap when they have a bullet I am looking for that Underwood and Buffalo Bore don't offer. But with the amount of internet chatter about QC issues, ammo not achieving advertised velocities, etc that has gone on at the 10mm forum and other similar places, I kind of avoid Double Tap for the time being to let others be the guinea pigs and report their results on the current offerings. I would be surprised if you ran into exactly the same problem as I did - pretty unlikely, especially considering manufacture about ten years apart. But after that incident, every round I carry for self defense first has a trip through a chamber check gauge. Times of excitement are not the time to find out there is a slight problem with your ammunition being able to chamber... I'm with you on the bears. Life here would be a lot less interesting without the bears, wolves, etc to watch. Going To The Sun just opened up, and at this time of the year on day hikes, with a little bit of luck you can spend most of your day watching a grizz, or a grizz with cubs, on an avalanche slope across a draw while they feed on glacier lilies, chase pikas, etc. My grizz hunting days elapsed about 30 years ago and I'm not interested in hunting or killing any more of them. But to paraphrase the old saying "You may not choose war, but war may choose you". Better to have and not need, than need and not have.
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Post by huntershooter on Jun 21, 2017 17:44:30 GMT -5
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Post by forester on Jun 22, 2017 6:12:35 GMT -5
Here's a link to a video I recorded two summers ago. We had just completed a timber sale here. The skidders has just left on the lowbed. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by forester on Jun 22, 2017 6:22:54 GMT -5
Here is a story I have posted elsewhere before. I've often wondered how the outcome might have been different if I was carrying at the time. Now my bear story: ;D I was walking through a pine forest on an old, moss covered skid trail. Moss coverings make for very quiet walking. I was contemplating how to lay out new skid trails and access the stand for a planned timber harvest. It was mid summer, or so and I was totally engrossed in what I was doing. So much that I blundered right in to a real bad situation. I heard a noise and turned my head to see what it was. First thing I saw was a bear cub scurrying up a tree. Next, another cub stood on it's hind legs, sniffed the air in my direction, and proceeded to start walking toward me at a brisk pace. Not quite a run. Much as I would have liked to pet that little guy, I new this was bad. Without looking around, I raised my arms over my head, waiving them frantically and yelled at that cub. It skidded to a halt about 20 feet from me and found another tree worthy of his best impression of his sibling. It was at this very moment I heard a noise to my right. Wanna guess what that was? Yep. Mama bear and she was none too pleased. She was about 50 feet away or so and started running toward me. I immediately (I panicked) turned to run. Two steps in to my flight the voice in my head said "Don't run!" So as I turned around, I was greeted with the sight of that bear 10 feet from me. When I turned, she also stopped. She backed off a bit but was stomping the ground with her paws, in a very stiff like manner. She was also showing me what great teeth she had, snapping her jaw at me. She did several of these "false" charges at me, all the while I was yelling and screaming and waving my arms around. I wasn't regularly carrying back in those days. Once, I even looked down to see a good sized tree branch on the ground. Thinking I had something I could use as a club, I reached down to grab it, only to have it fall apart in my hands when I raised it up. Rotten. Well, after some time of this, which was probably only a minute but felt like much more, she finally retreated back to about 50 feet but was still snapping her jaw and stomping the ground. By this time I had stopped yelling and told her, more calmly than I felt, that it was alright and that she could just calm down. I figured it was safe then to try to get out of there. I backed away from her for a bit, then took a deep breath and turned my back on her, walking briskly away. I looked back over my shoulder after going about 50 feet and she and the cubs were gone. They knew when the getting was good too. I left the woodlot for another day. Figured it was time to catch up on some paperwork. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by Carolinaman on Jun 22, 2017 7:13:40 GMT -5
Shaun, That's a great story! Now, let me share another told by me personally by a fellow I met that was a Alaskan Fishing Guide... I met this gentleman a couple of years ago at work and he told me what he did in his spare time. He told me that he was a Alaskan Fishing Guide that would go home and take parties up the rivers to Salmon Fish. Naturally, that led to the subject of bears and bear defense. I asked him "what do you carry?" and expected to hear that he was armed with some "big ass" Smith and Wesson revolver in .44 plus calibers. He grinned and replied "well no, I generally carry a short barrel 12 gauge Mossberg shotgun loaded with bean bag rounds". He then went on to tell a short story of how a cub and bruin approached his party while "standing guard" and shot both with 12 gauge bean bag rounds and sent them scurrying off into the bush howling... I've had several encounters with Black Bears over the years and generally they didn't want to have anything to do with me; nor I with them! The funniest thing I ever saw was a black bear chasing golf balls on a fairway of a course where I worked as a restaurant manager with the angry golfers yelling and waving their clubs at the bear. Can you take a "drop" on a bear chased golf ball? I doubt that one is in the PGA rule book! Chris
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Post by sistema1927 on Jun 22, 2017 7:46:25 GMT -5
Here's a link to a video I recorded two summers ago. We had just completed a timber sale here. The skidders has just left on the lowbed. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk It looks like Facebook is not allowing your video to show up here.
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