myassis
Member
Resisting Entropy to the best of my ability.
Posts: 22
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Post by myassis on Oct 21, 2021 13:41:10 GMT -5
I FULLY understand that the P-35 was built for fights, not precision pistol matches, but I was wondering if the P-35's twist rate might lend itself to better groups with a particular projectile weight (length?). I tend to buy 124/125 gr. projectiles, or 147 gr. FPs to reload 9mm. I don't DISLIKE 115s, but I'm "one of those" who believes that penetration matters, if one's immediate interpersonal situation turns "adversarial".
I'm not having a lot of luck with determining what the twist rate is in P-35s (which may differ, from one iteration to another, for all I know). I hope to play with various bullet weights (lengths?) to see if my particular pistol seems to shoot tighter with one over the others.
My "go to" 9x19mm reloads are:
1.)5.4-5.8/Unique/125 gr. TC or LRN
2.)5.8-6.2/Herco/125 gr. TC/LRN
3.)4.6-5.0/BE-86/147 gr. LFP
I guess it's obvious that I'm fond of Alliant pistol powders.
All input welcome.
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Post by Bob Reed on Oct 21, 2021 14:28:41 GMT -5
Hello,
The FN-Browning High Power has a 1/10 Twist Rate. I also favor the 124-147 grain loads, but one of my most favorite loads is the old Federal Classic C9BP 115-gr. JHP Load - it's very accurate, feeds well, low recoil and has a good street record.
BTW: I'll move your thread to our reloading section since it fits in better there.
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Post by gt40doc on Oct 21, 2021 16:30:11 GMT -5
I don't reload my carry ammo, which is 124gr Speer Gold dot ammo. My reloads are just for paper punching and my vision won't allow precision shooting these days.
In the past I have handloaded 9mm with many powders incl. Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, etc. Quite some time ago I tried Power Pistol with 115gr FMJ bullets and got my most accurate loads for my guns. I have just stayed with PP powder. Compared to other powders, it does have a bit more flash/bang, and that does bother some folks.
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Post by ToddSig on Oct 21, 2021 18:01:16 GMT -5
I am more interested in collecting Hi Powers and learning about their history than the technical side of shooting. So I can not contribute much knowledge to this discussion. When at the range I typically shoot a commercial 115gr and occasionally 124 gr ammo. I have a Ted Yost Heirloom Precision SRT build on a 2009 Hi Power. In my opinion, and many others, Ted Yost is the premier Hi Power master gun smith working today, and with that I take what he says seriously. His Care and Feeding instructions that came with the SRT are as follows (highly recommending 115gr ammo). YMMV, but just thought I would throw it out there.   |
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Post by Mister Coffee on Oct 22, 2021 22:01:04 GMT -5
Strongly recommend against 124 gr in newer guns? Hmm. Wasn't the gun designed for 124 gr?
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Post by CXM on Oct 23, 2021 2:55:34 GMT -5
The original 9x19mm round was designed with a 116gr bullet. This has served very well for over 100 years and while the 124/5gr bullets work well to a nine grain in bullet weight in reality isn't a huge difference. Both work well. So for me, I mostly load 115gr bullets mostly because they are cheaper and because they stabilize well from a HP (actually 115 gr works well in any 9x19 I have tried it in.)
Like others I use commercial JHP loads for serious social situations... and have been satisfied with all the major brands... In years gone by I used to buy a case or two of JHPs when they were on sale at good prices. I still have reasonable quantities of speer Gold dot, Remington Golden Saber and Federal 9BP and 9BPLE on hand. I mostly prefer the Federal 9BP for High Powers mostly because it is standard pressure (and because I have a good bit of it on hand) but I like the +P Federal 9BPLE and have carried that in MKIII HPs though I don't shoot it in them for day to day use.
Both the 9BP and 9BPLE are accurate in my guns and have an excellent track record in real world shootings. Still I can be perfectly comfortable with any of the major brads.
As a side bar S&B now makes a JHP load that works really well...it doesn't get the respect it deserves.
FWIW
Chuck
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Post by Bob Reed on Oct 23, 2021 13:00:06 GMT -5
Hello, Everything I've been able to find indicates that the original 9mm Luger bullet was a truncated cone and weighed 124-grains. By 1915-1916 the truncated bullet was replaced by the more rounded ogive, FMJ style bullet - and from what I can find, it looks like the weight was reduced to 115-grains in 1915. Hopefully, JonnyC (cartridge collector) will see the thread and share his history-knowledge on Georg Luger's 9mm Cartridge. 9mm Luger Cartridge History & Info: cartridgecollectors.org/documents/Introduction-to-9mm-Luger-Cartridges.pdfMore 9mm Luger Info: www.ammoland.com/2020/11/history-9mm-para-most-prolific-centerfire-pistol-round/#axzz7A3jiaO2UChuck, I like Sellier & Bellot Ammunition and their (SB9C) 115-grain JHP Bullet sure looks (in photos) to have a nice, rounded ogive like Federal's Classic C9BP 115-grain Bullet. Actually, the S&B (SB9D) 124-grain JHP looks very feed friendly too. FWIW: I've only used S&B's FMJ Handgun Loads in 9mm Luger, .40 S&W and .45 Auto and they have quickly become one of my preferred brands. Note: To anyone who may not know, Federal 9BP and C9BP are the same. 9BP was the original part number and Federal added the 'C' prefix latter on for it's Classic line. Todd, 'IF' I had read Ted's ammunition caution without knowing who wrote it, I might have laughed-out-loud, or, at the very least, smiled real big. BUT, I have a lot of respect for Ted Yost and take what he say's seriously - even if I'm personally having a hard time understanding it pertaining to Standard Pressure 124-grain loads. So, if you're up to it, would you please email Ted and have him confirm that he does in fact, advise against exclusively using Standard Pressure 124-grain loads (or heavier) in The Hi-Power. I agree with him 100% regarding +P and +P+ ammunition, but the Std. PSI 124-grain caution leaves me baffled. |
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Post by ToddSig on Oct 23, 2021 17:42:03 GMT -5
Todd, 'IF' I had read Ted's ammunition caution without knowing who wrote it, I might have laughed-out-loud, or, at the very least, smiled real big. BUT, I have a lot of respect for Ted Yost and take what he say's seriously - even if I'm personally having a hard time understanding it pertaining to Standard Pressure 124-grain loads. So, if you're up to it, would you please email Ted and have him confirm that he does in fact, advise against exclusively using Standard Pressure 124-grain loads (or heavier) in The Hi-Power. I agree with him 100% regarding +P and +P+ ammunition, but the Std. PSI 124-grain caution leaves me baffled. Hi Bob,I know what you mean, and I was a bit hesitant to post the content from his guidelines/use instructions as it goes against the grain  of many Hi Power shooters. I will reach out to Ted Yost at Estate Sporting LTD and ask for his comments on the ammo for the Hi Power. I will update when/if I receive a reply. |
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Post by Mister Coffee on Oct 24, 2021 12:31:04 GMT -5
Bob, you reference the history of the 9mm Luger cartridge, but did the French contract for the Hi-Power or the final design for the P-35 specify 115 gr? Just wondering. I don't have your knowledge or expertise, and my memory of reading Stephen Camp and other sources is growing foggy and dim.  P.S. What have the Brits and other militaries been running through their government issue Hi-Powers for the last 85 years? |
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Post by Bob Reed on Oct 24, 2021 18:07:44 GMT -5
Hello, Mister Coffee.
I don't remember ever reading that the French even specified a specific cartridge, but by the time work began on The High Power, the 9mm Luger cartridge would have been the logical choice. And, since it looks like 115-grain bullets were being favored/phased-in/or-whatever by 1915 - the French probably viewed it as a 'standard' weight by the time work began on The High Power.
I believe the Brits initially used 115-grain, then started using 124-grain during the war, and officially went to 124-grain Post War.
As far as what the Brits and other militaries have used over the last 85 years, I'm guessing mostly stout loaded 124-grain ball along with hot loaded 115s.
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myassis
Member
Resisting Entropy to the best of my ability.
Posts: 22
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Post by myassis on Oct 25, 2021 9:08:28 GMT -5
I'd sure like to hear more of Mr. Yost's rationale concerning the only occasional use of 124/125 gr. and heavier projectiles in the P-35. It was my impression, from years of poring over reloading manuals and manufacturers' ballistic tables, that historical norms for the 9x19mm military ball were 115 gr. at ~1250 f/s, and 124/125 gr. at ~1150 f/s. By extrapolation, a 147 gr. projectile might have a muzzle velocity of just under 980 f/s, though I tend to load for 147 gr. at 900 + 25 f/s.
If the ballistics I describe tend to batter the venerable P-35, perhaps there are ways of reducing slide velocities that do not involve attenuating the ammunition. It is difficult for me to imagine that one must turn the 9x19 Parabellum into 9mm Glisenti, or a ".380 +P" in the name of preserving the longevity of their P-35s.
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Post by ToddSig on Oct 28, 2021 7:18:08 GMT -5
I checked with several well known and respected Hi Power gunsmiths regarding ammo usage, although I dont have permission to use direct quotes, the complete consensus is standard pressure and velocity 124gr ammo is totally acceptable to use. The higher pressure +P 124 gr ammo stresses the locking lugs of the Hi Power. As explained, that is the main reason why 124 gr +P is not recommended, as damage can occur.
Again, no issues with the 124gr standard pressure and velocity ammo as it is both recommended and acceptable to use and should not cause any issues with the locking lugs.
Hope this helps.
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of many Hi Power shooters. I will reach out to Ted Yost at Estate Sporting LTD and ask for his comments on the ammo for the Hi Power. I will update when/if I receive a reply.
