early MK III Metallurgy question

[larry]

hi

I got a question , I own a BHP MKIII built in 1994, I was reading in the wb that some early MKIII left the factory with poor heat treatment, therefore some slides were softer.

according to Mr. Sthepen Camp, heat treatment process changed in the summer or fall of 1993, slides with this new heat treatment were marked near the firing pin safety paddle with a single number enclosed in a hexagon, such number indicates the quarter of the year where the slide was built.

my gun as mentioned before was built in 1994 (at least the frame) but the slide has no hexagon with a number indicating the quarter of the year.

the only marking that I see under the slide over the center rail is a crest with letters "PV"

how can I tell if my gun slide has the improved heat treatment?

I called Browning CS and ask about if my gun serial number falls into the guns with not propper heat treatment, and was told that some have bad heat treatment and some wont, that is hard to tell , that I need to take my gun to a facility with the equipment to determinate if the gun has good heat treatment.

my concern is that, how can I tell if the slide on my gun was one from thos built after the heat treatment changes in the summer of 1993 and was not put together by using old stock slides?

many thanks and hope that this is the right place to post this

[ToddSig]

Welcome to the High Power Collectors board. I see you also posted on the 1911 Hi Power sub forum. I cant speak much on the metallurgy, but as T Norris pointed out on the 1911 forum, if you are not shooting +P ammo, you should not have a problem. I have heard of only a few cracked slides, and not enough for it to be on my radar of issues. Perhaps some others on the board can comment on the metal hardness issue.

Regarding dating the slide, sometimes difficult to do if FN did not place the manufacturing date mark on it. It will sometimes be on the firing pin block. FN did better with production dating marks on their barrels. Check on the foot of your barrel and see what you have. Below is an image of my 1993 Hi Power, barrel foot with the hexagon around a 3. Usually if you are missing lines it is an indication of quarter, but for a 1990s mark, I dont have that info.

[larry]

many thanks Sir, very usefull information, now regarding the hexagon in your barrel foot with a "3", does that means that it was built in the 3rd quarter of 1993?

thanks again

[larry]

Todd I just looked at my barrel foot and I also hace a number "3" inside the hexagon, but hexagon is missing one side, what would this means?

thanks again

[larry]

would this means that it is a first quarter od 1993 or first quarter of 1994?, I dont understand how it works, Mr, Camp said that the number od sides missing from the hexagon indicate the querter of the year, but what does the number "3" means?

thanks again

[ToddSig]

Hi Larry, the way the production dating marks work is the main box/polygon, as in your case the hexagon, represents the decade, the number within the polygon represents the year of that decade (for you 1993), then the number of missing lines represents the quarter of that year. 1990s used the hexagon, 1980s a square, 1970s a diamond shape. Some of the polygons repeat over the decades, and sometimes numbers are in different font or are backward so you can tell the difference of dates between the polygons as well as using other marks, such as serial number and controller of proof marks, as well as Hi Power characteristics such as thumbprints, internal/external extractor, hog nose busing, ambi safety, sights etc. All can be used to properly date a Hi Power, although the production mark is the most specific for the individual part.

For example, a diamond shape production mark represents the 1970s, with a 5 representing 1975, and with all four sides it is 1st quarter of 1975. While a diamond shape missing the two right lines represent a 3rd quarter production.

I dont have the quarter marks for the 1980s or 1990s. Hope this helps. Perhaps another member does?

[larry]

thank you Sir

[tnorris]

Larry,

What is your concern?

If you are looking at the code on the barrel, it is very possible this gives you a mfg date for the barrel and not necessarily the slide. Pistols are made with parts available at the time of assembly and fitting. It is not uncommon to find original pistols with parts made in different years.

Based on the picture from Toddsig (a four sided hexagon = 1st qtr), I would guess your barrel, from your description as a three sided hexagon, was produced in the 2nd quarter. This pattern was used from 1968 to 1977 and from '45-46.

Again, unless you are using extremely hot ammo, a practice I do not understand for any pistol, the metallurgy of your High Power should be of no concern. I am pretty certain the "soft slide" thing was not an actual problem... Perhaps others will chime in. I'll reread the Camp book later. He was writing around that time.

While this is fun to ponder, I would enjoy knowing what concerns you have.

Cheers,

Tim

[larry]

Tim mi concern it took me a long time to get my hands on a gun with a cast frame, and that was because I was trying to get a BHP more durable than the older versions, when I bought it didn`t know the I could find hi power`s with cast frames but with slides with less hardness that the ones from 1994 onwards are supposed to have, I`m by no means expert on BHP`s in fact this one is my first one.
I tought that by getting one with a cast frame was enough to have a more durable gun, but I didn`t fndout about that heat treatment change until 3 days ago.
I only own two guns, a 1911 GCNM and the BHP, the 1911 I inherited from my Dad who passed away two years ago, and honestly I dont want to use it as an EDC I thought that I could use the BHP as an EDC because I like the classic look the thin profiles and I+m not fond about polymer guns, I grew up with 1911, S&w 52, K,L and N revolvers so I`m kind of an old school.
so going back to the BHP I was planning for EDC to carry it with more hotter loads, but wouldn`t like to ruin such a beautiful gun.
that was my concern about the slide.
the other concern is why do I have a 1994 frame and a 1993 slide? maybe production leftovers and were not updated with the new heat treatment spec.
anyway, thanks to all for your time and support

[tnorris]

Hi Larry...

First, it is very common for High Powers to be assembled with parts made at different times. It it very likely all guns, by all manufacturers, are made the same way. A part goes into the bin when finished and comes out of the bin when it is needed. There is no “use by” freshness date. Yours is a 1994 High Power through and through.

If you are using any High Power, you probably want to use standard pressure ammo. The use of +P or +P+ ammo in ANY gun, even those rates for it, will cause extra wear and shorten its life span. In addition, it has more recoil and may prevent you from having accurate follow up shots. If you are in a close range defensive situation, you will never notice any flat trajectory advantage at long range. If you are are in a long range defensive situation, you will probably be going to jail. For these reasons, I see absolutely no advantage to using hot ammo in any gun, especially my High Powers. You will have no real world gain.

If you still must use +P, you might benefit from a heavier recoil spring and a buffered recoil spring guide rod. Using standard ammo, the BHSS Buffered Recoil Spring Guide Rod with a standard .40 caliber recoil spring makes my .40 High Power feel like I’m shooting 9mm. And if you think you must use +P, perhaps you use it sparingly and use standard pressure ammo for most of your practice.

Again, I see zero practical advantage to using hot ammo. Especially in the High Power, a gun that was not made for hot ammo. Some will disagree with me.

My every day carry is a 1981 FN alloy frame fitted with a ‘90s FN Detective Slide. I like old school and I like special. Speer 124 grain Gold Dots, at the same STANDARD pressure as my practice ammo, fill my EDC magazines. I expect I will NEVER need to use it. I pray that you and all here will also never need to use a pistol in self defense.


Cheers,

Tim

[larry]

I agree with you in everthing, Thanks for your help Tim

I will carry it with SV untils it`s all worn.

thanks again Sir

[tnorris]

Larry,

I would bet it will last you a lifetime and then some!

Cheers,

Tim

[larry]

I hope so Lol, thanks for the peace of mind, I was considering a trade with someone who truly appreciate the pice, but your words plus many pictures in the web made me change my mind and keep it.

thanks Tim again you gave me peace of mind and also many thanks to ToddSig for his time