124 NATO: What Is It?

[Mister Coffee]

I have read that 9mm 124 gr. NATO is ammo loaded to a higher pressure — up to, or near, +p pressure.

Here are my questions:

1) Is all 124 gr. 9mm ammo the same thing as NATO ammo?

2) How come the difference in pressure is not reflected in muzzle velocity or muzzle energy (see below)?

3) If we had PSI data for the three samples below, what would they read?

I know I'm missing something obvious here, but no matter how long I stare at it and scratch my head, I can't figure it out.

Thanks.



From Lucky Gunner:

PMC Bronze 115 FMJ 9A
Muzzle Velocity: 1150 fps.
Muzzle Energy: 338 ft. lbs.

PMC Bronze 124 FMJ 9G
Muzzle Velocity: 1110 fps.
Muzzle Energy: 339 ft. lbs.

Winchester White Box 124 FMJ NATO Q4318
Muzzle Velocity: 1140 fps.
Muzzle Energy: 350 ft. lbs.

[HRFunk]

I think you are seeing a couple of things. First, the PMC 124 grain load appears to be fairly warm (or else their load specs are a bit overly optimistic! You always have to consider the test barrel used to obtain the factory's velocity readings). That's why you don't see a tremendous difference between it and the NATO spec Winchester load. Even so, you still see a 30 fps velocity increase with the Winchester. Also, that load is within 10 fps of the lighter 115 grain PMC load. Your best bet would be to chronograph the ammo from your pistols and see what the results actually are.

Howard

[CXM]

NATO spec is not for the 9x19mm per se. The NATO spec describes an agreed upon spec for individual items... so for example, in .223/5.56 there is a NATO spec for the 55gr ball round, the 62gr round and so on. Obviously, the spec is somewhat different for each one... the same is true for the 7.62x51 and the 9x19.

What this means is there is a NATO spec (and indicated on the case by the + within a 0 on the base of the case) for BOTH 115gr and 124gr loads.

The goal of the spec is to ensure ammunition interchangeability between NATO countries.

The Army addresses the standard TM 43-0001-27, entitled Army Ammunition Data Sheets, Small Caliber Ammunition, FSC 1305.

Here are the specs for both bullets:

The 9mm, Ball, NATO, M882 and is designated for Pistol, 9mm, M9 has the following specifications:

Bullet weight: 124 gr (FMJ)
Powder charge: 6.0 gr of HPC 26
Ave pressure (at case mouth): 31,175 psi
Maximum pressure: 36,250 psi
Velocity: 1263 +/- 5fps at 15 feet from muzzle.

For the 115gr, the standard loading is the Cartridge, 9mm, Ball 115gr FMJ.

Bullet weight: 115 gr (FMJ)
Powder charge: "Commercial propellant, MBR (meet balistic requirements)"
Ave pressure (at case mouth): 38,500 psi
Maximum pressure: 43,000 psi
Velocity: 1125 +/- 90 fps at 15 feet from muzzle.
The manual specifies this round may NOT be used in the M9 pistol, but can be used in "...commercial weapons."

Note the NATO round is loaded to a lower pressure level than the standard SAAMI spec 9mm Luger rounds.

Discussion of the existence of sub-machine gun only 9x19mm ammo has been the subject of long and often heated acrimonious argument in various forums between shooters and 'gun experts.' Truth is there is no special SMG ammo manufactured. The claim European ammunition) is loaded to higher pressure levels than U. S. manufactured ammunition is simply wrong. Sub-machineguns - are mostly blow back operated work just fine with standard ammo... The original loading the Germans developed prior to WWII and used through two wars is hotter than current NATO loads.

Anyway, I hope this helps address an issue that has caused so much confusion over the years....

So 'what is the 124 NATO?' The 124gr NATO is simply one loading of 9mm that has been standardized because it has been established to work in the weapons of the NATO members... it is however not the only 9mm NATO load... it is however the one the U.S. Forces usually use.

V/r

CHuck

[Mister Coffee]

Very interesting, gentlemen. Thank you.

[Bob Reed]

Hello, Mister Coffee,

Like some, I've always had a strong curiosity in non-typical, 9mm FMJ/Ball ammo (115-gr & 124-gr) foreign & domestic and of course, any & all 9mm Military loads (and any non-typical, .45 AUTO 230-gr FMJ/Ball ammo.)

In my recent pursuit of non-typical, FMJ/Ball ammo I came across BELOM Ammunition, and they show the spec's for their standard 124-gr, 9mm Luger load and their 115-gr & 124-gr Mil-Spec/NATO loads. 

Here's the spec's on the 124-gr, 9mm Luger load. belom.army/9-mm-luger-eng/

And here's their Mil-Spec/NATO spec's sheet. belom.army/9-mm-nato/

BTW: Yes, I know I'm replying to a 6 y/o thread (please don't fire me Chuck - work is hard to find these days!) but I thought the info would be useful to Mister Coffee and everyone else. Plus, we need some conversation!

[jonnyc]

Let's not forget about Israeli 9x19 that is/was produced specifically for the Uzi SMG...as shown on the box labels and through firing. It was very stout through a BHP and I personally saw some Helwans spontaneously disassemble with the Uzi ammo.

[CXM]

Some 25 or so years ago some military surplus 9x19 made in an unidentified arab country (some reports said Egypt, but I asked several times while there one time during a visit to the plant that makes Helwan products, about excessively hot SMG ammo. They told me they had heard of it but it was not made in Egypt. They thought it came from Iran (the NESPO colonel in our group was fairly sure it was made in Iran. Interestingly, the Egyptian army colonel said Egyptian solders were prohibited from picking up ammo with arabic head stamps.

Anyway, there were reports this ammo (with arabic head stamps) damaging guns. Reportedly it was made for SMGs... but who knows for sure.

FWIW

Chuck