Seeking info on A-prefix HP I just received

[teddydog]

I just picked this up today.






What I think I know about it is that the A-prefix guns were made in Belgium in the WWII era after the end of German occupation.  This gun has what appears to be a newer slide and barrel, though both are SN matched to the frame.  Obviously the rubber grips and extended safety are much newer.

What I know is that this is a recent import by RGuns so it is likely one of the many guns coming out of Israel.

Any info that can be provided would be helpful, such as age of the frame, slide and barrel.  Also any ideas about how this came to be with "matching" numbers on different era parts (if such a thing can be known).  Factory rebuild?  I'll provide pics and descriptions of the primary parts.

The right trigger guard has a faint "C" then some marks that look like they are over each other.  Crown and in an oval "AC" and some other marks that make it all hard to fully make out.



On the left side, the frame marking are difficult to make out, too.


Underside of the slide


Recoil spring and barrel bottom



Barrel markings


It came with a pretty unremarkable magazine.  No markings.


Thanks for any thoughts and information that you can provide!  I have one other HP right now and that is a Canadian service Inglis that has been rebuilt a time or two.

Rob

[teddydog]

Update: I was looking at the magazine again and found that it IS marked on the front: BELGIUM - 9MM NATO/LUGER

So it looks like it is an FN contract mag.

Rob

[ToddSig]

Teddydog, welcome to HPC and thanks for the great images of the A prefix High Power. Agree, slide/barrel/magazine are later than the frame. No thumbprint depression and an external extractor. According to Vanderlinden's book, the A series High Powers were produced beginning in October of 1944, stating with A101. The A was stamped prior to the rest of the serial number, and the A pistols were considered to be finished to a higher degree than the earlier September produced pistols. Many were sold to American GIs and also to a Belgian mine operation in late 1944 and early 1945. By 1945 orders were coming in from the Belgian military for High Powers. Proper grips should be Bakelite.

For some of the markings, first the slide, the star over an A on the firing pin block is close to what an inspector mark is, but it looks off to me (having a larger star/asterisk than normal), the dates of the inspectors using *A does not match the slide or the two piece barres (started use around 1965 if I recall correctly). Three inspectors used the *A, all 1960 and earlier, the slide would be later due to external extractor and no thumbprint depression. FN did away with the thumbprint depression around 1961 or so and followed by the external extractor. The *Y on the barrel, given it is a two piece barrel relates to Francois Delsaux or used the *Y mark from 1959-1968.

The frame has several State Arms Manufacturer mark (MAE)s, the Belgian State arsenal. The C in a hexagon is an MAE inspectors part acceptance, and according to Vanderlinden were active Spring 1940 to May 1940. The Crown over two letters, AC perhaps, was an MAE mark used on High powers between 1935 and 1940 and signifies the part passed testing at the state arsenal.

So some of the parts and markings dont make a lot of sense. Look on the hammer, trigger and slide stop back side for production marks, a number with box like or partial box like lines around it. That too would help date.

My area of interest is in later Hi and High Powers, so hopefully some others will comment as well. TNorris who is far better with IDing the early Hi Powers than I am will hopefully comment.

[Bob Reed]

Todd, that's a +1935 Post if one ever was. Excellent, solid info, at its finest.

Teddy, ole Todd and TNorris are literally 'walking' BHP Encyclopedias that never ceases to amaze.

[tnorris]

Hey guys...

There are things about this pistol that confuse me. The [star A] which is not the traditional [*A].

I have what was supposed to be an Israeli Contract pistol with a [star Y]... but it's a 5 point star. It has a standard serial number with a 1989 date code. I have recently seen other pictures of this Controller of Proof variation, all in [star Y], and I am not sure it is a Controller of Proof mark.

Mine was refinished in a flat dark gray (phosphate?) and many marks are difficult to read. It also has the same grips.

I think the "A" serial number pistol in question has also been refinished and is possibly from a contract with a special serial number range, and not an "A" pistol from 1944. The marks inside the slide are identical to mine but with an "A" rather than "Y".

I'm gonna have to read some more... I'll probably wake in the wee hours tomorrow morning and feel a need to search for a better answer.

Knowing it's from RGuns is good. I've been out there a couple times on the way home from my local Tractor Supply Co. Perhaps they will let me look at some others if they still have them.


Cheers,

Tim

.

[ToddSig]

Regarding the slide, it is from a type 71/73 High Power. So post 1972 or so. First give-away is the hog nosed bushing, second is the roll mark of Fabrique Nationale Herstal rather than the earlier Fabrique nationale d'Armes de Guerre.

[teddydog]

Here are more detailed pics of markings

Back of slide stop.  Appears to be a partially boxed "6" or "9".  




Right side of frame on the trigger guard


Left side of frame at trigger pivot.  Looks like a "sun", bar, "P.V" forward of the pivot and "star" over "K" behind.


The left side of the trigger has what might be a partially boxed "A", but I could not get a pic that made any sense.  You can kinda see it above (and lots of gunk that needs to be cleaned off).
Right side of trigger.


I could not find any markings on the hammer with it in the pistol.

On the bottom of the slide rearward of the clear "star" "A" is what looks like another boxed/partially boxed digit which could be a 6, 5 or 0...something rounded.  It is right where there is wear so it is very hard to make out.

Please let me know if any of this helps narrow things down.

Rob

[tnorris]

"Left side of frame at trigger pivot.  Looks like a "sun", bar, "P.V" forward of the pivot and "star" over "K" behind."

I must remind myself that early High Power serial numbers are quite unreliable as a dating tool. With the '50's and '60's pistols you can get a feel for a number range, but there always seem to be examples that do not fit.

 - *K would narrow it down to 1929-1968, the stamp used solely by Delsaux Walthere. I'm not sure I see a K, but can't see what else it may be..

The "partial boxed number" date code only existed from 1946 to 1966 as far as I can tell from the chart. FN was not able to produce new pistols until sometime in 1946... and there is only one variation so I guess they resumed production in late 1946.  In '44/'45 FN employees were only using up leftover German produced parts to assemble pistols, They were unable to produce new parts.

Parts like the slide stop and hammer are replaceable parts and not intended to last the life of the pistol. It would not surprise me to find parts stamped in different decades on a retired military/police pistol.

The "sun" is a standing lion character, part of the proof mark.

If this was a Post Liberation pistol, it probably would have the German mark MR stamped (sideways) on the front left trigger guard. It should also have the German Trigger with no provision for the magazine disconnect. I can see the disconnect pin on your trigger.

I am leaning towards a contract pistol specifying special serial numbers.

I would not call it a Post Liberation pistol unless I could find a good verified example to compare it to.

Gotta keep looking for clues... not conclusive at all!

Cheers,

Tim

[CXM]

I think this is an Izzy army force match gun.

The Izzys captured a lot of HPs in their various wars... quite a few of which were damaged. The Izzys assembled as many guns as they could from the parts they had on hand and then force matched the serial numbers by renumbering some of the parts to match the others... which is what I think you have here... in this case a more modern upper mated to an earlier frame.

FWIW

Chuck

[ToddSig]

From the FN Forum, a similar situation, A prefix frame with later slide. Some good pictures, frame has the hexagon with a C and th AC over a crown MAE mark on it as well. Tim (Tnorris) was thinking the inspector mark was a K, so does this example.

Link to thread is www.fnforum.net/threads/need-information-regarding-a-prefix-serial-number-hi-power.75508/

[teddydog]

Yes, that one really looks a lot like mine. I don't see any sign of previous numbers having been removed from the barrel or slide. No dishing or shallowing where the numbers are. These might have been new parts, or ones that were used before but not numbered in previous life. I wonder if FN did a rebuild or refurbish for Israel or another buyer using older frames and new parts? Obviously just speculation The Israel connection is, I think, one of the few "knowns" here as that's where this gun came from via RGuns (I bought it from them and it has their import stamp).

What are you guys' thoughts on shooting this gun occasionally?

Rob

[tnorris]

Mar 20, 2022 16:49:14 GMT -5 teddydog said:

Yes, that one really looks a lot like mine. I don't see any sign of previous numbers having been removed from the barrel or slide. No dishing or shallowing where the numbers are. These might have been new parts, or ones that were used before but not numbered in previous life. I wonder if FN did a rebuild or refurbish for Israel or another buyer using older frames and new parts? Obviously just speculation The Israel connection is, I think, one of the few "knowns" here as that's where this gun came from via RGuns (I bought it from them and it has their import stamp).

What are you guys' thoughts on shooting this gun occasionally?

Rob

I've been reading a little, and thinking a little more.

I ran across a couple lines in the Vanderlinden book...

 - some A prefix Post Liberation pistols were found in FN inventory many years after Liberation, when Israel was a large buyer of FN High Powers, and some sold to Israel. I want to say 1968 but I cannot find the passage.

 - early A prefix pistols were poorly finished, like the last Occupation pistols, and had the MR mark and a trigger that did not accommodate the mag disconnect.

 - later A prefix pistols may have been more polished/finished and properly inspected vs the early ones without the MR mark and a trigger that accommodated the mag disconnect.

I shoot my 1943 Occupation pistol every so often, but only after certain parts had been replaced. The sear spring, sear, recoil spring, recoil spring guide rod and trigger spring were critically among those parts. I have kept the original parts for posterity. Of those replaced parts... the sear spring seems vastly more critical than the others.

IF yours is a 1962-1968 build from FN using a new upper and an old frame from that 1944 A prefix inventory, it is probably safe to shoot often as long as those critical parts are replaced. If it was a 1968 build, it is a 53 year old pistol. If those parts were replaced in the last few years it is probably good to go. I think it's different than if you had a post war A prefix pistol brought home from the war by your grandfather.

I don't think FN would have built and sold an inferior pistol to Israel.

I don't think Israel would have resold as surplus an inferior pistol or have put together a frankengun that would fail.

If, as CMX suggests it is an Izzy army "force match" gun, I don't think they would have put together a dangerous pistol.

I can't say it's safe to shoot, but with new parts, the parts that are supposed to be replaced, it probably is safe to shoot.

From experience with my Occupation pistol, if the trigger pull is remarkably light, check for hammer follow and replace the sear spring.

You should also consider what anyone else here has to say about it.

Cheers,

Tim

[CXM]

There is some good advice here.

I bought a number of interesting Izzy surplus guns some years ago when Gary Cole imported them (sadly he is now dead.) He had quite a few unusual used guns including some with the crests of various arab counties that had attacked Israel over the years.

On all used HPs I buy, I replace all the springs as a matter of course and clean them thoroughly. I also grease (not oil) the bearing parts which I think is better lubrication. I oil the guns overall for rust protection. Our friends at BHSS offer spring sets with all the springs you need to do the job.l

While the pistol is detail stripped it is a good time to check carefully for any cracks or other damage to the gun. Pay special attention to the area where the locking lugs move inside the slide... it is not unusual to see slides damaged by barrel lugs when the gun is used with worn out recoil springs. Here is a pic of the damage in a gun I returned to the seller.





You can see the damage to the inside of the slide caused by the worn out recoil spring allowing the barrel lugs to 'chatter' against the inside of the slide during recoil. You can also see the wedge shaped damage done to the inside of the recoil spring/guide rod tunnel from the same cause.

Using worn out springs can definitely damage a HP. If you replace the springs and inspect the gun carefully you should be good to go... if you are unsure about anything inside the pistol let a competent gunsmith inspect it.

Otherwise the only comment I'd make is to keep in mind the older guns are not rated for +P ammunition. Enjoy shooting the HP.

FWIW

Chuck

Mar 20, 2022 21:36:25 GMT -5 tnorris said:

Mar 20, 2022 16:49:14 GMT -5 teddydog said:

Yes, that one really looks a lot like mine. I don't see any sign of previous numbers having been removed from the barrel or slide. No dishing or shallowing where the numbers are. These might have been new parts, or ones that were used before but not numbered in previous life. I wonder if FN did a rebuild or refurbish for Israel or another buyer using older frames and new parts? Obviously just speculation The Israel connection is, I think, one of the few "knowns" here as that's where this gun came from via RGuns (I bought it from them and it has their import stamp).

What are you guys' thoughts on shooting this gun occasionally?

Rob

I've been reading a little, and thinking a little more.

I ran across a couple lines in the Vanderlinden book...

 - some A prefix Post Liberation pistols were found in FN inventory many years after Liberation, when Israel was a large buyer of FN High Powers, and some sold to Israel. I want to say 1968 but I cannot find the passage.

 - early A prefix pistols were poorly finished, like the last Occupation pistols, and had the MR mark and a trigger that did not accommodate the mag disconnect.

 - later A prefix pistols may have been more polished/finished and properly inspected vs the early ones without the MR mark and a trigger that accommodated the mag disconnect.

I shoot my 1943 Occupation pistol every so often, but only after certain parts had been replaced. The sear spring, sear, recoil spring, recoil spring guide rod and trigger spring were critically among those parts. I have kept the original parts for posterity. Of those replaced parts... the sear spring seems vastly more critical than the others.

IF yours is a 1962-1968 build from FN using a new upper and an old frame from that 1944 A prefix inventory, it is probably safe to shoot often as long as those critical parts are replaced. If it was a 1968 build, it is a 53 year old pistol. If those parts were replaced in the last few years it is probably good to go. I think it's different than if you had a post war A prefix pistol brought home from the war by your grandfather.

I don't think FN would have built and sold an inferior pistol to Israel.

I don't think Israel would have resold as surplus an inferior pistol or have put together a frankengun that would fail.

If, as CMX suggests it is an Izzy army "force match" gun, I don't think they would have put together a dangerous pistol.

I can't say it's safe to shoot, but with new parts, the parts that are supposed to be replaced, it probably is safe to shoot.

From experience with my Occupation pistol, if the trigger pull is remarkably light, check for hammer follow and replace the sear spring.

You should also consider what anyone else here has to say about it.

Cheers,

Tim

[ToddSig]

I too agree, clean, replace springs, safety inspect, shoot it and enjoy. Let us know how it shoots, and thanks for sharing with us.

[cmdrcody]

Mar 18, 2022 18:34:58 GMT -5 teddydog said:

Update: I was looking at the magazine again and found that it IS marked on the front: BELGIUM - 9MM NATO/LUGER

So it looks like it is an FN contract mag.

Rob

Since the magazine says 9mm NATO, that would date probably to the 1982 STANAG 4090, though first ratification of 4090 was in 1962. Most firearms and ammo did not have 5.56mm NATO or 9mm NATO markings until early 1980’s after the ammunition standardization was being pushed including the Beretta 92 selection for replacement of the 1911.