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Post by 26thz on Mar 7, 2021 16:42:46 GMT -5
Some pictures of my gun. In addition, the top of the slide beneath the sight has markings OLU with a cricle H. under the sight is a letter Z. On the firing pin retaining plate is T1. It has a recoil spring guide with a notched body and an indented screw on the end.
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Post by ToddSig on Mar 7, 2021 17:27:45 GMT -5
Some pictures of my gun. In addition, the top of the slide beneath the sight has markings OLU with a cricle H. under the sight is a letter Z. On the firing pin retaining plate is T1. It has a recoil spring guide with a notched body and an indented screw on the end. Nice Tangent. All I can tell for sure is the controller of the proof mark, which is an asterisk over "N", which is Henri Florkin's mark, working at FN from 1927-1958. I cant make out some of the other marks, which are typically numbers inside boxes or partial boxes for manufacturing date codes. I have not seen them with letters inside them, unless I am seeing them incorrectly from your images. Also, please let us know the serial number or partial serial number, and full image of both sides of the HP and the top of the tangent sight (all might help date the HP). Would like to see if you have an internal extractor and thumb print depression. Are there any marks on the underside of the slide, and also on the butt of the grip? Some of you marks could be arsenal marks.
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Post by 26thz on Mar 8, 2021 5:11:02 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply ToddSig. The gun is internal extractor with the thumb print. Serial number 28,000 range. (What's the etiquette on showing serial numbers?) I thought the N proof was Louis Couchant. Above it is the nitro proof PV with the lion figure. Then an oval with E over GB. And to the far left, a circle H. On the frame and trigger guard is a crown over P.V in the oval. An 8 is on the opposite side of the trigger guard. The barrel is stamped with similar markings, minus the crown over PV but including the definitive mark, crown over E LG in the oval. The barrel is stamped with the serial number and a circle H internally. An H in a square is stamped inside the slide. No markings on the butt, however the frame is stamped (opposite the picture I posted)with the serial number and another circle H. Those markings are covered up by the grip. On the trigger is an A with two sides to the box and another circle H (very faint). I'll try for better photographs. Not having much luck without setting up lighting and mounting the camera on a tripod. Thanks for your help, again!
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Post by 26thz on Mar 8, 2021 5:35:26 GMT -5
I should probably introduce myself as I am new to this forum. I'm also on the FN forum as 26th-Z. I have been shooting High Powers since 1988. Now I own three guns as you can see from my avatar. A 1986 245 series which is my shooter. It has been worked on by BH Spring Solutions and the hammer was replaced. The blonde grip gun is a 1969 T series. Lovely work of art. I just bought the tangent sight gun. The grips have been replaced and I don't like the looks of the recoil spring and guide. I have ordered replacements.
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Post by ToddSig on Mar 8, 2021 9:10:19 GMT -5
I should probably introduce myself as I am new to this forum. I'm also on the FN forum as 26th-Z. I have been shooting High Powers since 1988. Now I own three guns as you can see from my avatar. A 1986 245 series which is my shooter. It has been worked on by BH Spring Solutions and the hammer was replaced. The blonde grip gun is a 1969 T series. Lovely work of art. I just bought the tangent sight gun. The grips have been replaced and I don't like the looks of the recoil spring and guide. I have ordered replacements. Welcome to the Forum and thanks for sharing your new Tangent with us. Very interesting. First, no real protocol on serial numbers, you can post them if you wish or post partial numbers, up to you. I double checked the controller of the proof mark, *N, in Vanderlinden's book, and it is listed as Henri Florkin, 1927-1958. I believe there is chart floating around with three names using the mark *N which is incorrect as I assume Vanderlinden list is correct. I am not an expert on early FN guns so hopefully some others will add to this discussion, but the one thing that stands out is the H in a circle. Vanderlinden lists this mark as a Belgian pre war contract 1935-1940, stating "Belgian contract pistols received their first markings at the factory. A military inspector inspected the parts and marked them a parts approval marking (circle H, C/E or octagonal C/E), this mark is also found on the magazine body and is the only way of identifying a prewar Belgian contract magazine." The A in a box on the hammer could be FN's Pre WWII final inspection mark, Vanderlinden states "A (square) early 1930s -1940: This is FN's fourth and final prewar quality control stamp. The Belgian orders ran from about 1935 to 1940. Vanderlinden shows a High Power with a serial number of 21,631, and he dates it to 1938. So your is probably shortly after that. . You have what is called the type 1 tangent sight, which is 60% marked, and with that sight, the pistol was probably issued with a shoulder stock to non officers. Officers were issued tangent sight without stock, type II. Also, in 1938 FN changed the barrel cam from round to square. Need images to see what you have. Highly recommend you get Vanderlinden's FN Browning Pistols, a great resource. A third edition should be coming out this year. If you cant find a copy or prefer to wait for edition 3, DM me and I will take some images on the Belgian contract pages for you.
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Post by CXM on Mar 8, 2021 11:49:22 GMT -5
FWIW here is a photo comparing the early 'round' locking lugs with the later 'square' arrangement. FWIW Chuck Looking at photos with info presumed to be correct I saw these two which are similar to your pistol: Shipped in April 1940: Officers Pistol #40033 / Type 2 Tangent Sights / No Slot *E, square "C" Mfg Dec 24, 1938: #21631 issued to a machine-gunner / Type 1 Tangent Sights / Slot *E, circle "r"(?)(1939???) [this pistol was stashed in a chicken coop by machine-gunner Louis DeMeester before his capture by the Germans and retrieved after he was liberated from a forced labor camp by the Red Army] Your barrel has the square cam slot which first appeared in 1938 (?) and was used concurrently with the round cam slot barrels until those were all used up. There is no recorded date or serial number for the change, which was not a clean change because the two types were sort of all mixed together in wicker parts baskets. So, the new design became available "around sr#36,000" and "sometime in 1938". Once issued I don't think they swapped out the older design for the newer one. FN later used the round design for Alloy Frame pistols in the 1980s... and it may be a better/stronger design. Until the mid 1950s, serial numbers were rarely a good way to determine the born on date of a High power. Numbers were used and reused for different contracts and may have been duplicated in different years. Accurate records were not kept. Two types of 500 meter Tangent Sights were used concurrently. Type 1 (yours) was for pistols fitted with slots for the shoulder stock and Type 2 was for pistols without the shoulder stock. On the Type 2 the scale uses the entire sight length and the slide is milled differently. In 1938 a fixed sight model was also produced. I think you have a pre-war High Power made between early 1939 and early 1940. One can only imagine where it had been and what it had seen in it's early years. I could imagine is was a war souvenir before your father acquired it. Does your father remember any details about or stories from its previous owner? The details here are from the work of R. Blake Stevens and Anthony Vanderlinden, whose books every High Power enthusiast should own... along with the works of Stephen Camp. I hope that anyone with additional or differing thoughts will jump in... info about early High Powers is a bit fuzzy.
Tim
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Post by 26thz on Mar 8, 2021 12:26:05 GMT -5
Thank you, ToddSig! What great information. I have been looking for Vanderlinden's book, but it is out of my price range at the moment and I'll hop on the 3rd edition when it comes out. I took some more pictures: Of the frame with the grip off - serial # 28426 with the circle H Of the barrel with another circle H The end of the of the recoil spring guide (stamped C on the shoulder)
The magazine is what I would call period correct. It does not have any markings that I can see however the bottom plate is the notched type and the follower? is aluminum.
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Post by 26thz on Mar 8, 2021 12:58:27 GMT -5
Thanks Chuck! That post by tnorris was what got me started. I bought this gun from a collection in New York through a broker in Missouri. I don't know much about the history of the gun. The broker originally presented the gun as "early 50s". Perhaps I should go looking for a stock.
Chris
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Post by CXM on Mar 12, 2021 9:17:15 GMT -5
Funny you should mention a stock... I have one for sale, but I'm not sure it would work on anything but an Inglis. FWIW Chuck Thanks Chuck! That post by tnorris was what got me started. I bought this gun from a collection in New York through a broker in Missouri. I don't know much about the history of the gun. The broker originally presented the gun as "early 50s". Perhaps I should go looking for a stock. Chris
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Post by 26thz on Mar 27, 2021 16:38:01 GMT -5
Update: I bought Anthony Vanderlinden's book and confirmed the proof marks as a pre-war Belgian military issue. Great book, and I found one for a "reasonable" price. I also bought a reproduction stock. I shot with it and don't like it. Great curio but not something I would commonly shoot with.
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Post by ToddSig on Mar 28, 2021 16:14:44 GMT -5
Update: I bought Anthony Vanderlinden's book and confirmed the proof marks as a pre-war Belgian military issue. Great book, and I found one for a "reasonable" price. I also bought a reproduction stock. I shot with it and don't like it. Great curio but not something I would commonly shoot with. Vanderlinden's book is a great resource. The other good books are Blake Stevens' The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol and of course Steven Camp's Shooters Guide to the Browning Hi Power. All must have. Anthony Vanderlinden's third edition of FN Browning Pistols looks like it is going to be excellent with a lot of new content. Cant wait for it to become available. His websites states about the third edition. We have completed several chapters and have been astonished how much new information was collected since the last edition. The third edition will contain the following: 1- Expanded biographies of key individuals 2- New information on John Browning and FN 3- Expanded information on FN's dealer network and agents, including biographies on those agents 4- Expanded and detailed coverage of grip variants and magazine variants as well as manufacturing details. 5- Expanded information on pistol models, variants, and contracts. 6- Expanded information on FN during World War II: the occupation and resistance activities 7- A large and new accessories chapter on holsters, presentation cases, shoulder-stocks, etc. 8- Several identification guides to help collectors identify counterfeits 9- Counterfeit warnings throughout the book: alerting collectors what has been reproduced, so they can be better informed. 10- ... and much more We anticipate an expansion of at least 100 pages, this book will most likely reach 600 pages. We hope to have the book in production in 2021.
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Post by 26thz on Mar 29, 2021 5:14:34 GMT -5
I haven't ventured into Blake Stevens yet. Enjoy Stephen Camp's web page. Lots of good reading there. I sent a request to be notified when the 3rd edition of Vanderlinden's book is published. Frankly, I never thought I would get into High Powers like I did. I shot with one way back in the late eighties and just wanted another shooter when I bought a 1986 with adjustable sights. I sent it off to BH for spring and trigger work that I loathed with my earlier High Power. Then I got enamored with 'T' series and bid on auction that I never intended to win. Ran across the pistol of this thread in an ad that didn't make much sense. After a phone call, I thought I might have something unique and sure enough. Always wanted to try out one of those stocks. "Forgotten Weapons" has a good YouTube video about the pre-war GP35. So does "Legacy Collectables".
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