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Post by ToddSig on Feb 20, 2022 16:59:50 GMT -5
Smesi14, welcome to HPC. You have a nice looking High Power. From what I am seeing, I am guessing early 1950s for the date of manufacture, possibly for either the West German or Austrian market.
The sideways E with an asterisk is the mark of inspector Auguste Jamart, who worked as an inspector between 1924 and 1959. With that, we know it is no later than 1959. The close up of the ejection port image, on the trigger guard, it looks like a 3 in a box (although looking at the other image, it is hard to tell from the image what it is, so the 3 is more of guess). I cant tell for sure, but if it is three, it would mean a production date of 1953. Knowing the number and sides of surrounding box like lines ould narrow the part manufacture down to the quarter. I have a 1952 production High Power with a serial number of 40230, so 1953 would make sense from the serial number.
If you would look for a small number on the various parts with box like lines it will indicated the year the part was manufactured. Cock and look at the sides of the hammer, look on the trigger, the back of the slide stop, firing pin block on the underside of the slide, on the magazine, and on the barrel lug you should find these manufacture date marks.
According to Vanderlinden's book, many High Powers of the 1950s were sold to Germany and Austria as law enforcement pistols, but there are no markings to indicate if the were actually for the law enforcement market or not. He states the serial numbers wer in the 29800 to 60000 range, and sales started in 1951.
Tell us a little of the family history of the High Power, and let us know if you find any of the manufacture date marks. Again, nice pistol and welcome to HPC.
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Post by tnorris on Feb 20, 2022 21:35:51 GMT -5
Todd has given to you all the info you might need. Indeed post more close-up photos of stamps on various parts. And please do tell us what you know of the history of your pistol!
I agree with Todd... I think the number of the right side of the trigger guard is a "3". It is a probable 1953 pistol.
Cheers,
Tim
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Post by luger on Apr 18, 2022 14:48:13 GMT -5
Excellent information, especially that from SubMOA. Thanks. But I have a three High Powers that have S/Ns that don't fit anything I've seen here. One is an "A40xx" S/N, reportedly from WWII. Another is an alloy framed High Power that has a S/N beginning with GBV and then 5 numerals after that. The final HP has 6 digits for a S/N and it starts with 478xxx. None of these fit into the schema that is here or on the Browning site. Does anyone have an idea about the dates on these? My more modern HP has the 245MNxxxxx S/N and that was easy to decode. Thank you in advance.
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Post by ToddSig on Apr 18, 2022 18:09:27 GMT -5
Excellent information, especially that from SubMOA. Thanks. But I have a three High Powers that have S/Ns that don't fit anything I've seen here. One is an "A40xx" S/N, reportedly from WWII. Another is an alloy framed High Power that has a S/N beginning with GBV and then 5 numerals after that. The final HP has 6 digits for a S/N and it starts with 478xxx. None of these fit into the schema that is here or on the Browning site. Does anyone have an idea about the dates on these? My more modern HP has the 245MNxxxxx S/N and that was easy to decode. Thank you in advance. Welcome to HPC Luger, glad to have you as a member. A few limited responses, but what we really need to see are images of the pistols and their serial numbers, roll marks and proof marks. From the limited info we have, the A prefix pistol is a post war High Power, manufactured after October 1944. Vanderlinden's book has the first A prefix being manufactured Oct 20, 1944 with a serial number of A101.Thse A priefix pistols had a better finish than the occupation pistols and those assembled from war time production just after the war ended. I dont have a high point for the serial numbers on A prefix pistols, but FN was making them in Nov of 1945 (Vanderlinden calls a substantial order) to the Belgian military. Regarding the alloy, I have an alloy with a law enforcement GVC serial number, stacked over each other on the barrel, slid and frame. The frame, on front grip strap has a typical 245PM (1980) FN serial number. Perhaps others can add to this on the lack of an FN serial number. Not sure what you might have on the 6 digit 478XXX serial number High Power. Images would help. Keep in mind, serial numbers dont always tell the ful story on Hi Powers, as FN would accommodate contract request for special or unique serial numbers. For adding images, not more than 1 mb in size, and limited to three per post. You can do multiple posts. Use "add attachment+ link in top right corner of the posting box.
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Post by motorudyx on May 17, 2022 18:18:32 GMT -5
This is an excellent thread and a wealth of information. I came across this Hi Power recently and have been searching for a good pre-occupation unit with type 1 tangent sights and slotted for shoulder stock. I know the difficulty of dating these things. Do the proof stamps provide any other indications of things I have not found below? The SN is 32784 and the barrel is stamped on the left side. So far I have gathered - (please correct me if I'm wrong) - Epreuve De Liege proof ( Proof of Liege) - *E = Jamart Auguste 1924-1959 Insepector - PV Barrel Proof. Smokeless or Poudre Vive proof. - EGB is the Belgian Govt proof mark and shows that the parts passed inspection and are property on the Belgian state. Can anyone tell me the other stamps such as the H in the circle or the PH in front of and above rear of the trigger or any other information? Thanks in advance for any help.
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Post by ToddSig on May 17, 2022 18:57:54 GMT -5
This is an excellent thread and a wealth of information. I came across this Hi Power recently and have been searching for a good pre-occupation unit with type 1 tangent sights and slotted for shoulder stock. I know the difficulty of dating these things. Do the proof stamps provide any other indications of things I have not found below? The SN is 32784 and the barrel is stamped on the left side. So far I have gathered - (please correct me if I'm wrong) - Epreuve De Liege proof ( Proof of Liege) - *E = Jamart Auguste 1924-1959 Insepector - PV Barrel Proof. Smokeless or Poudre Vive proof. - EGB is the Belgian Govt proof mark and shows that the parts passed inspection and are property on the Belgian state. Can anyone tell me the other stamps such as the H in the circle or the PH in front of and above rear of the trigger or any other information? Thanks in advance for any help. Welcome to HPC motorudyyx. You have done some good work in identifying you High Power. From what I can tell from the images and marks, it is one of the early Belgian contract pistols. The H in a cirle is an arsenal inspection mark applied by FN, and was used between 1931 and early 1940. The crown over PH is a Belgian state arsenal acceptance mark, used from the mid 1920s on Belgian military Model 1910, as well as High Powers, 1935-1940. The barrel cam looks like the production change from round to square. Square cam was introduced in 1938, so I would think your High Power would date between 1938 and 1940. The pistol with type 1 tangent sights and shoulder stock slot would be for NCOs, as officer High Powers were all type 2 tangent sights. Hope this helps.
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Post by motorudyx on May 17, 2022 19:18:53 GMT -5
Thank you for the reply and the additional information. Some of the excitement I find in these is the history and researching details on them. I appreciate your input and glad to hear my research was accurate. Any recommendations on where to find a decent shoulder stock for it?
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Post by ToddSig on May 17, 2022 19:42:15 GMT -5
Thank you for the reply and the additional information. Some of the excitement I find in these is the history and researching details on them. I appreciate your input and glad to hear my research was accurate. Any recommendations on where to find a decent shoulder stock for it? Original Belgian contract stocks will be hard to find and extremely expensive if correct and of the period. There are some reproductions out there. Sarco occasionally has them, also Simpson at simpsonltd.com/fn-browning-hi-power-stock-board-c51424/They had sold in the past one for $175. You might wish to touch base with them. Keep in mind, NFA rules can apply, so you need to check into that. Perhaps some others can comment on that. Also, the Belgian contract High Powers with stock, did not have a holster attached. It had the drilled holes for the holster, but according to Vanderlinden, none had the holster.
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Post by motorudyx on May 18, 2022 18:25:46 GMT -5
I seem to be learning more and more as I go. I was aware of the hollowed out shoulder stock which could holster the gun, but not the solid stock with holster attached. Were the hollowed out stocks only for certain contracts? I have seen that Inglis made many for the Chinese contract, but were there others?
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Post by ToddSig on May 18, 2022 19:05:32 GMT -5
I seem to be learning more and more as I go. I was aware of the hollowed out shoulder stock which could holster the gun, but not the solid stock with holster attached. Were the hollowed out stocks only for certain contracts? I have seen that Inglis made many for the Chinese contract, but were there others? I believe most of the hollowed out or enclosing stock system were for Inglis High Powers. Below is an image from Anthony Vanderlinden's 2nd edition book FN Browning Pistols of FN should stock and holsters. (AV should be taking orders for his 3r edition within the next few days and delivery later this summer, www.fnbrowning.com/book-fn-browning-pistols-3rd-editio). Regarding the Chinese contract and wooden stocks, Vanderlinden states "The bulk of these pistols were shipped with FN's standard flat board should stock and attached holster. Various sources and research into the production of th Canadian Inglis indicated that the Chinee were not fond of the FN flat-board stock and favored instead the enclosing older Mause 896 wooden stock system."
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Post by simon on Sept 26, 2022 3:34:55 GMT -5
Hi All - I'm in the UK where (with very few exceptions) the only High Powers legal to own are deactivated guns. My Dad recently passed away and left me his collection - my favourite has always been his High Power but I knew little about it, so have been trying to learn as much as possible by reading this forum and other sources. I've posted some pictures (although the photos don't really do it justice - in reality the finish has an amazing shine when the light catches it correctly, even though it looks black in the pictures). As far as I can work out from my limited research it is a Belgian FN with the relevant markings visible through the ejection port and an 'E*' Inspectors mark of Auguste Jamart, placing its date of manufacture between 1924 and 1954. (The E* and PV are also imprinted on the left side of the frame and slide). The serial number is 5277, which is visible on the slide and frame, although not on the barrel as far as I can see. It also has the thumb print on the front right hand side of the slide. I cannot see any additional external markings (other than the UK deactivation stamps) - there is nothing obvious on the trigger, trigger guard or hammer. On the right hand side under the part of the barrel that is visible through the ejection port there is 'RR' and underneath it what looks like an '8' inside three sides of a square (left, top and right sides present with nothing at the bottom). On the opposite side of this there is a single 'R'. I have no idea what these markings mean. I have no knowledge of anything else about the gun's design (e.g. sights or hammer type) that might provide clues about its age or history. I also appreciate that the way in which the serial numbers were issued on these guns means they can be difficult to age accurately but from my little knowledge, would I be anywhere in the ball park by guessing early post-war? Amateur detective work aside, can any of you give a more expert appraisal of this fine weapon's approximate age please? Also, have I interpreted the markings correctly and what else is useful to look for in assessing this particular piece? I can post more photos if helpful. Thanks in advance, Simon.
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Post by ToddSig on Sept 26, 2022 6:41:53 GMT -5
underneath it what looks like an '8' inside three sides of a square (left, top and right sides present with nothing at the bottom). Hi Simon, welcome to HPC, and sorry to hear about your Dad. Great Hi Power, and wonderful condition. It looks to be an early post war Hi Power, but has none of the typical Belgian contract markings. The 8 with three lines around it is a part manufacture date. It is always hard to be sure and serial numbers dont always tell the story, but it looks like the barrel was manufactured during the third quarter of 1948. FN did not start marking the parts production date with partial lines until 1947, so it would not be earlier. And, given inspector Jamart only worked unitl 1954, it would not be later. With that, the High Power probably dates from 1948 or perhaps early 1949. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by tnorris on Sept 26, 2022 9:23:20 GMT -5
Hi All - I'm in the UK where (with very few exceptions) the only High Powers legal to own are deactivated guns. My Dad recently passed away and left me his collection - my favourite has always been his High Power but I knew little about it, so have been trying to learn as much as possible by reading this forum and other sources. I've posted some pictures...On the right hand side under the part of the barrel that is visible through the ejection port there is 'RR' and underneath it what looks like an '8' inside three sides of a square (left, top and right sides present with nothing at the bottom).
Hi Simon,
A number in a partial square is a date code for inspection (proof) of a particular part. Due to the service timeline of Auguste Jamart, I would guess your barrel was inspected/stamped in the third quarter of 1948. Other parts could have a different date.
On the right side of the pistol there is another date code at the front of the trigger guard. I cannot see it clearly from your photo, but it appears to be a 4 in a three sided box. This would date the frame to 1954 (or whatever number it is). I use the frame date code as "the born on" date, as the frame is the least replaceable part. As I imagine production... you assemble pistols when you have all the parts and in the post war period this must have been more difficult to have do. Sometimes some marked small parts (firing pin retaining plate) will have a date code more recent than the frame by a quarter or two. Obviously, if a pistol has been rebuilt parts could be years apart.
Nice pistol! What a shame it is deactivated... I have a beautiful 1950 High Power which shoots like she is new.
* I have added a photo of the date decoder. This is not complete, it went on for a few more years. Note the variances in numerals (upside down - 1958, backwards - 1960s, added period - 1950) and shape of enclosure to extend the date range. In later years I believe the enclosure shape was a diamond. Often these marks are poorly struck and difficult to read. Interpretation is often required.
** I would like to see closeup detail photos of the number on the trigger guard, the barrel, and any other details you uncover. There may be a similar number inside the slide, on the firing pin retaining plate and other parts. I would also like to a photo of the front of the recoil spring guide rod.
*** The serial number is an unreliable indicator of age. However, my 1950 has a serial number of 28,915 and I have located one from the same year with #28,912. Another pistol I have photos of, which seems to be dated to 1952, has a serial number of 56,***, which is higher than yours.
Cheers,
Tim
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Post by simon on Sept 27, 2022 4:37:10 GMT -5
Tim / ToddSig - thaks for your very information and quick replies. The dating system with numbers in boxes makes sense to me so I can see how the barrel is likely to be 1948. Tim - I've zoomed in on that further date marking at the front of the trigger guard that you refer to (great spot by the way, I hadn't even seen it!) and it's very faint but the most I can make out is that it seems to be the top and bottom horizontal lines of a box with the left hand side vertical line and the top circular part of a number '8' or '9' - if correct then using your chart, it could only possibly be a stamp form the fourth quarter of 1949...would this be correct? I'll attach a photo of this as best I can and additional photos of other elements as requested, standby.
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Post by simon on Sept 27, 2022 4:58:35 GMT -5
** I would like to see closeup detail photos of the number on the trigger guard, the barrel, and any other details you uncover. There may be a similar number inside the slide, on the firing pin retaining plate and other parts. I would also like to a photo of the front of the recoil spring guide rod.
Cheers,
Tim
Hi Tim - here are the extra photos you requested. The more I look at the faint stamp on the trigger guard the more it looks like a '9' in a 3-sided square enclosure (left, top and bottom). You can see from the interior of the slide the way in which the poor thing has been butchered to comply with UK deactivation laws, so I don't know how much that image is of use to you - I can't see any stampings in there.
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