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Post by CXM on May 26, 2017 16:19:49 GMT -5
Lawyers gotta eat too... V/r Chuck You know, I've been involved in these "commercial or hand-loads" discussions on more forums than I care to mention over the years. What's interesting is there are plenty of "experts" (and I'm being serious.......honest experts) out there and they all have differing opinions on this single subject. Ask a prosecuting attorney, a defense attorney, handgun experts, handgun trainers, legal defense funds, etc., etc., etc., and you get a different opinion from each one of them. So here's my opinion: (it's more of a question) Why in God's name can a defendant end up in court and be judged by differing "opinions" depending on the judge, attorney's and jury's whim? Why, in this day and age, has our legal system deteriorated to the point that it judges based on opinions and not repeatable "givens" ? It's a given that if I run a red light, I've run the red light whether I'm in a sports car of a beat up jalopy. There's no opinion to lean on. Why can't the legal system just come out and say "No hand-loads in self defense weapons" (or the opposite) instead of putting a defendant in jeopardy if he/she so happens to shoot the bad guy (and the courts seem to over look the fact they ARE the bad guy) with a bullet that he feels will defend his life better than something he can buy at Wally-World? I guess I'll never understand how our legal system has turned into a "feel good" apparatus instead of a legal tool. I long for the "old West" where this was all settled quickly without a bunch of falderal!
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Post by chris623 on May 26, 2017 16:32:49 GMT -5
I didn't say anything negative about lawyers, Chuck.
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Post by Carolinaman on May 26, 2017 17:29:55 GMT -5
Hello Chris623, No offense taken and I come from a long line of attorney's (though I never became one)! However, I was reminded in this discussion of the "two aspects" of a SD shooting here and thank you for letting me express my concerns here from a "less than legal aspect"; but one of practical importance... I didn't say anything negative about lawyers, Chuck. There are two issues I was taught back in 1996 when I first trained for and received my SC Concealed Weapons Permit in a class from a former USMC Gunnery Sargent and LT. serving with the local Horry County Police Department. The first one was that if you were involved in a justifiable shooting was the "criminal" case, i.e. a Grand Jury Hearing. The second aspect is surviving a "Civil Suit" in terms of the perp's family. The second can take away all of your assets and property for being involved in the confrontation and shooting whether it is justified or not. My Instructor warned us 20 years ago not to carry a heavily modified firearm or carry reloaded ammunition. I think my instructor gave us (the class) some pretty good advice from a "practical aspect" as he was involved in a few cases involving SD shootings.... By the way, I am carrying my Glock 19 today loaded up with Remington Golden Sabres when out and about over this weekend. Thank you sir for the reminder! Best, Chris
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Post by CXM on May 26, 2017 17:40:50 GMT -5
No you didn't... I was referring to the Why question... Lawyers, like other professionals have no incentive to make things more understandable to the unwashed masses... I was however making a joke... which is entirely in keeping with our basic premise on this board... that is being like a group of friends sitting around a camp fire... I know if you are an attorney or not, but don't be offended by lawyer jokes... some of the best ones come from my lawyer friends... Jokes and humor are always welcome here... Speaking of lawyers, my Law Dictionary, is larger than my English Language dictionary... interesting to know fact... V/r Chuck I didn't say anything negative about lawyers, Chuck.
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Post by Jäger on Jun 3, 2017 18:27:05 GMT -5
I was asked to do a presentation to a group of state legislators in Utah a bit over ten years ago - my presentation had more to do with the "use", nothing to do with the legal implications. However, Mitch Vilas was there, and that is exactly why he was there. Vilas had written (at that point) at least one book on firearms self defense and the law; at that point, it was the meat and potatoes of his law practice. Vilas' take on the question of home grown defense loads ran along the old line of "Well, a prosecutor can find reasons to indict a ham sandwich if he wants to". However, he said he would not worry about homegrown loads being an issue - for any argument a prosecutor could come up to villify reloaded defense ammo, he could present two which argued it proved the person on trail stood at the side of the angels. The only possible issue he said was legal realism i.e. a prejudiced jury could seize on it as a reason to convict - however, a jury prejudiced in the other direction could seize on it as a reason to acquit.
His bottom line was "I wouldn't worry about it".
All that aside, with today's fine service ammunition, I fail to see any reason (for me) to handload defense loads any more. I carry Federal 147 gr HST loads in my HP after going to one of ATK's ballistics workshops - anyone who gets a chance should go if they still hold them. Now, you can buy pulled Federal 147 grain HST bullets from decommissioned bullets occasionally from American Reloading and similar web vendors. I don't think Federal sells them as part of their product line. Let's assume those bullets are good as new after the pulling process. What do I gain by loading them myself to try and achieve a cloned Federal 147 gr. HST, as opposed to buying new in box ammunition from the vendors who sell it?
Yeah, with costs all in, after all the effort, trials, experimentation, etc. I might save myself $10 a box in comparison. But what's my time worth?
The argument is the same whether you favour Speer Gold Dots, Winchester Ranger, Remington Golden Saber, etc. In my view, I shoot so little of my carry ammunition that it is counter productive to try replicating my ammunition of choice from the selection available to law enforcement. Spend $60 and buy a couple of boxes (or however much makes you feel comfortable). Then go find some cheap range bullets that replicate the POI, put all your reloading efforts into churning out cans of them, and head to the range.
I suppose the exception is those who believe there is a linear relationship between velocity and terminal effectiveness i.e. 'mo velocity = mo better. For those who ascribe to that school of thought, there is Underwood, Double Tap, etc. as well as handloading. I reject that line of belief myself, but we each must follow our own muse.
I do think this line of thought is correct when considering critter defense ammo. We live in the shadow of Glacier NP; a mountain biker was killed by a grizz about 15 minutes from our house last year, and we had a bear entertain himself with the inside of our garage before moving on to the garbage bin on Memorial Day. No shots were fired and the bear moved on, but a 10mm is a natural accessory carried on our property, loaded with heavy WFN bullets for unexpected confrontations. In these circumstances with WFN bullets, more velocity equals more penetration, simple as that, and there will be no expansion. For this, I happily patronize Underwood rather than casting WFN bullets, sizing, heat treating, reloading, etc. Go to the 10mm forum, and you'll find lots who reload their critter carry loads to well beyond what Underwood and Buffalo Bore offer.
But again, when the carry is for critters, we each must still follow his own muse.
And my muse says "Carry the commercial stuff available, but not because you're worried about problems in court".
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Post by bart on Jun 5, 2017 11:59:30 GMT -5
I carry factory ammo and reload to replicate them for practice. For example; I carry 124gr Federal HST's. I bought 500 "pulled" HST bullets and loaded them to the same velocity and OAL as the factory rounds. These are my practice rounds for the SD ammo. Sometimes when I shoot the reloads I'll put a factory round 1st and last in the magazine, but usually not, because I'm cheap!
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Post by trooper on Jun 8, 2017 23:01:22 GMT -5
If I can afford a gun I can afford factory ammo to put in it. I have enough concerns, both real and imaginary. There's no use adding one more. I shoot thousands of handloads every year, but only in training.
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Post by mountainoracle on Jun 17, 2017 5:01:12 GMT -5
I can argue this from either side (like an attorney). The only thing I'll say is I have 100% trust in my hand loads. I do carry hand loads and commercial ammo in my carry pistols depending on the caliber. If using a .38 Special in a Chief Special (model 60) for BUG it's loaded with the old Treasury 110 grain hollow point loaded to +P+P levels. If carrying my Rohrbaugh 9mm it loaded with hand loads as I haven't found a 9mm factory load that has good performance out of the Rohrbaugh most key hole.
If carrying .38 Super I carry hand loads, 10mm either hand loads or the original Norma 10mm factory load---since the FBI started using the 40 S&W(40 Short & Weak) most commercial 10mm loads have been down loaded. .45ACP,.357 Mag,.41 Mag, 44 Mag & Automag I would carry all these with factory rounds.
In attempt to liven this discussion up a little.....Opinion of use of .357 Mag hand load or .357 Mag Black Talon a factory road??
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Post by che on Jun 19, 2017 9:49:54 GMT -5
I was strictly factory ammo for SD/HD.
But factory ammunition is ridiculously high for two of my favorite BBQ guns, a blue S&W Model 29 four inch with my name engraved in gold with ivory grips and a nickel S&W Model 25-5 four inch. 44 Special and 45 Colt is two of my favorite calibers and they are loaded with heavy lead bullets and hefty doses of Unique.
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Post by che on Jun 19, 2017 10:01:13 GMT -5
In attempt to liven this discussion up a little.....Opinion of use of .357 Mag hand load or .357 Mag Black Talon a factory road?? For the 357 Magnum I was a big fan of the Federal 125 JHP that was rated #1 thirty years ago. It was superb in my S&W Model 27 and even in my Colt Single Action Army. The third generation Colt had overlarge chambers because it would split cases, even 38 Specials and sometimes after just one firing. So any brass that was used in the Colt had to be separated from brass that will be used in the S&W revolvers I had.
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Post by drunkenpoacher on Jun 30, 2017 10:48:31 GMT -5
Every one has to answer the question of the ammo you carry based on what seems best based on your individual facts and circumstances. For example: 1. Do you live in a jurisdiction that is hostile to gun ownership and self defense. 2. What are your local laws on self defense? How do they address your states rules of engagement 3. What other cases have there been in your state on the subject of the ammo you use? (if any... ) 4. How are self defense shootings handled by authorities? Here are some interesting facts: 1. There is no known case in which the type of ammo carried was a significant issue in a trial. 2. There are only a couple of cases in which the type of ammo carried was even brought up and then it wasn't a major issue. 3. The only case involving type of ammunition I have seen myself was in New Jersey... need I say more? 4. I have never seen a state law that addresses what kind of ammo you use. 5. There are no degrees of deadly force... force is either deadly or not... So my thought is analyze your individual situation, facts and circumstances, laws and their implementation and decide which is best for you. FWIW CHuck I have carried factory ammo but in the last few years it has been reloaded ammo nearly always. The facts stated by CXM agree with my own admittedly limited research.
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Post by warthogge on Jul 19, 2017 21:39:14 GMT -5
I sometimes carry with 9mm handloads, but more commonly with premium factory self defense ammo, in 9mm and 45acp. The idea of legal implications of one over the other does not hit my radar here in Texas. It's mostly about the possibility of me making a mistake on a reload. Yes, it's happened before.
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Post by trooper on Jul 21, 2017 10:49:28 GMT -5
If the prosecution is going after you for using handloads they probably don't have much of a case. On the other hand, why give them one more possible straw to grasp? Do yourself a favor and stick to factory ammunition for carry. It's not quantum physics folks.
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